To think that there would be less anti private school

[Poopoolittlekitten]

sentiment or threads on MN if people using private school were a tiny bit more self aware and didn’t ask for sympathy for rising fees or possible rising fees if Labour take away their false ‘charity’ status?

send your kid private if you want, just don’t come moaning about the costs or claim than anyone can go private if they ‘prioritise’ their child’s education they way you do. Particularly at a time when state school teachers are striking over pay and conditions.
And many, many people are working their socks off just to keep a roof over their family’s head.

YANBU - stop whining and looking for sympathy about your fees!

YABU - my milkman sends his 4 kids private by ‘prioritising’ their education so it’s not just for whiny poshos….

"If you put VAT on private school fees at the full rate we will end up seeing and witnessing similar."

Luckily we have falling rolls in many, many state schools, so I'm sure children whose parents couldn't find an extra £300 a month to pay the VAT on their school fees wouldn't be left without a school place.

"A lot of professional musicians, for example, also rely on teaching in private schools."

My kids comprehensive offers free 1 to 1 music tuition for musically talented children, taught by professional musicians. This scheme could just be expanded surely?

The large proportion of private secondary schools are a lot more than £18k a year, and a lot of people have more than one child. A family with 2 children will be looking at thousands of pounds a year more - money which then won’t be spent elsewhere in the economy.

My kids comprehensive offers free 1 to 1 music tuition for musically talented children, taught by professional musicians. This scheme could just be expanded surely?

Who is going to fund schemes like this? It’s not as if state schools are awash with funds.

Exactly. Lots of people can’t see beyond simply “taxing the private schools”. The knock on effects haven’t been considered.

Eton advertise 1250 music lessons a week with 78 music teachers providing them. Across many private schools that is how many musicians supplement their living.

It isn’t just about shifting the teachers to comps, practice rooms would be a huge issue etc. plus the reason it works is because the richer parents in these schools are happy to pay for music lessons. So a successful teacher can, for example, teach 12 lessons in row in one day.

Some parents, if VAT is added, will try to find ways to cut costs and reduce the “extras” bill, for example by cancelling music lessons.

"Who is going to fund schemes like this? It’s not as if state schools are awash with funds."

They'd have more money if they had more students, as the money follows the child.

Falling rolls are a growing financial problem for London schools in particular.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/school-places-londons-challenge-could-soon-be-everyones/

"Eton advertise 1250 music lessons a week with 78 music teachers providing them."

Unimaginable levels of privilege.

Blind spot, or maybe a recognition that dragging everybody else down isn't going to make the system more fair. My friend went to a selective private school on auric scholarship. Her brother went to the local comprehensive. He would have hated the pressure of the selective school. Is that unfair?

My neighbours send their dyslexic child to a private school because he was being bullied at the state. Their other children are still at the state school, doing well. Is that unfair?

We're in competition with other countries that manage to produce educated people. We need to put the effort into actually educating, rather than 'levelling' the next generation.

Or just do both

“We're in competition with other countries that manage to produce educated people. We need to put the effort into actually educating, rather than 'levelling' the next generation.”

Totally agree with this point. We need to make sure those who struggle are given extra attention to achieve a basic level of education, but we also need to make sure that those are really able are suitably stretched. Every child deserves to reach their full potential academically at school and should not be shamed or failed if their full potential is at either end. I think the private sector is better at dealing with some of this so why attack it if there are parents in it willing to pay?

@izimbra but what money? Fee paying parents already contribute the tax they're going to. The government already have it. At the moment, as it's not needed for Johnny's state school it's being spent elsewhere on being lumped in to pay for Freddie's state schooling. If Johnny also then joins the state school, where does the extra come from? The biggest fallacy about this whole argument is that abolishing private schools or massively impacting them with VAT will improve state education for all. It might achieve a levelling down goal of "fair but a bit crap" for many, but will fail utterly in achieving what some people seem to think it will that suddenly all state schools will be awash with cash, more teachers and motivated kids and parents who will have a transformative effect. I'm not saying all state schools are a bit crap, or that no stare pupils are motivated, of course that is not the case and there are many who outperform fee paying schools but that is not the only concern. Ultimate outcome is not why I am beggaring myself to keep mine in private, but the safe and small, nurturing environment they need. When the state can provide that I'll happily use it.

‘A lot of professional musicians, for example, also rely on teaching in private schools’

and a lot of parents who children are state educated also pay for their child to leant to play music. As do schools.
it’s sweet that you’re worried about the staff of private schools but taking away charity stairs shouldn’t actual affect them.

So those privileged children at state school whose parents are lucky enough to be able to afford music fees (or where the state funds it) wouldn’t have VAT levied on their music fees, but those at private school would?

Its not that unimaginable.

I can imagine each boy at the school having one instrument lesson a week and this isnt even each boy at the school as they have more pupils that that. Theres probably some boys learning two instruments or voice and others learning none.

So you live in Dulwich, with tons of educational, employment, arts, sports facilities, great transport, easy connections to the rest of the world. A lot of us have had to move out of London and even the London commuter belt because it has become unaffordable. Some of the money we've since been saving we are spending on our kids' education. Not sure who is more privileged here.

You do not need to attack private schools to improve state education. The top 5% of the country (1.6 million) with income of £70,000 or above pay 48% of all tax in the U.K. That includes those evil private school parents who are paying for an education they're not actually using.

Inequality in society is ultimately a function of wealth. The state school parents I know can also afford music lessons, private tutoring and educational resources. There's plenty of privilege way beyond private schools.

And your solution is to put pressure on already creaking state school budgets and create an influx of ex private school kids? It might initially feel good if you're a green-eyed type but it would be a hollow victory if the quality of education suffers.

It might initially feel good if you're a green-eyed type but it would be a hollow victory if the quality of education suffers.

This is what it boils down to. A lot of posters on here would be happy just to tax the private sector out of existence just so everyone is equal. They would be happy to drag everyone down to the same level rather than trying to pull everyone up to a better level. As long as everyone is “equal” it doesn’t seem to matter if that level of equality offers a poor level of education. It’s no wonder the UK economy is falling behind others with this kind of attitude.

I can’t understand why people aren’t as vocal about trying to improve the state system for 93% of children as they are about dismantling the private system for the 7%. If the state system was improved, people are less likely to want to use the private sector.

This is what it boils down to. A lot of posters on here would be happy just to tax the private sector out of existence just so everyone is equal.

Yes. I wonder how they would prevent children from being sent to school abroad since there are a number of public schools which have opened schools overseas, or home schooled.

We are happy with state because we did 11 plus and went to church.

Friends who were themselves privately educated but can’t now afford it for their own DC but chose “ethical” jobs in eg ehem journalism, charity sector, public sector, NHS etc tend to be the most vocal anti private school ones. Because their DC do struggle to fit in some state schools even the posher comps especially in London. I kind of understand why they are annoyed. However, I was also told by the same persons that I was scarring my DC mentally for making them go to church and do 11 plus. Plus I was also told at uni I was selling out for going to a corporate law firm.

Honestly, if anyone in the above category tells me one more time they are anti private schools, I will tell them it isn’t too late to retrain as a lawyer and go do 12-14 hour days.
Plus anyone complaining who is clever enough to tutor at home or hire tutors to get to GCSE level also needs to check their privilege. Many successful schools are selective at Sixth Form anyway so if your DC does well, move or move them!

In fact, I am increasingly thinking this whole anti private school thing is an attack by the cultural elite on the aspirational types who happened to have made some money and can send their DC to private schools these days, whilst many of the former can no longer afford to do so. And are not even being offered bursaries.

It is being sold as pro equality but it is in fact the opposite when you dwell deeper. Especially in places like London where independent schools are full of driven children from Asian communities.

@Intergalacticcatharsis Blimey-talk to
me about the other conspiracy theories you espouse!

It is not a conspiracy theory at all. It has emanated from many a discussion with certain persons.

@Intergalacticcatharsis Yep. "certain persons" who, having no principles themselves, automatically ascribe unpleasant self serving motives to anyone who does.

My daughter was in a state school and we moved her to an independent school in Year 3 and have since sent her younger brother and sister - it works so much better for her and our family she's happier, healthier and doing a lot better across the board.

I cannot understand why people who aren't using / don't want to use independent schools would come online to spend there spare time trying to get support to make it more difficult for children / families to have this opportunity or choice? All similar services have the same tax advantages I don't know why people feel so strongly about trying to remove this choice from some families.

Competition for opportunities is global not just in the UK - doesn't it make more sense to spend effort in trying to improve areas of education where there are issues instead of putting effort in to making it difficult for children who are happy where they are?

I can't see any real benefit to anyone but some children will be really negatively impacted if the changes you want go ahead