To think that there would be less anti private school

[Poopoolittlekitten]

sentiment or threads on MN if people using private school were a tiny bit more self aware and didn’t ask for sympathy for rising fees or possible rising fees if Labour take away their false ‘charity’ status?

send your kid private if you want, just don’t come moaning about the costs or claim than anyone can go private if they ‘prioritise’ their child’s education they way you do. Particularly at a time when state school teachers are striking over pay and conditions.
And many, many people are working their socks off just to keep a roof over their family’s head.

YANBU - stop whining and looking for sympathy about your fees!

YABU - my milkman sends his 4 kids private by ‘prioritising’ their education so it’s not just for whiny poshos….

'Is the objective is to get a population that can spell and add up, then any educational programme is helping them to realise that objective and so you don't tax them.'

The issue - and the reason that most people think it's an unfair tax break is because it's CHARITY status afforded to many of these schools that gives them the business tax exemption, but as privately run businesses charging a premium for their services to some of the country's wealthiest people - they are not charities.

If the government wants to give them some other tax breaks, go ahead - but this fake charity status needs to change.

But it's really a red herring - lots of people saying there have been big fee increases and only the really wealthy will be be able to afford private etc. or the price hikes are extortionate or disproportionate ( which to be fair, they do sound) - none of which have got anything to do with the charity tax breaks these businesses get.

Then take it up with the charity commission 🤷🏻‍♀️

Although you’d be unlikely to get far with it. When there was a court case private schools did in fact win. You may not agree with their charity status, but it’s not something the government have the power to strip.

they are not charities

They are……

You might not agree with it, but they are registered charities.

Is it though? I'm prettys sure the Charity Status and the no VAT on fees are separate issues.

They are separate issues, as lots of people have tried to explain on these many threads. Some people refuse to listen though. Lots of schools even now aren’t registered charities. It doesn’t mean they have to charge VAT. I’m not even convinced the Labour Party understand this to be honest.

My understanding is that you don't pay VAT on school fees for the same reason you don't pay VAT on university fees - because its education.

A bit like you don't pay VAT on children's clothes, whether you buy them in Tesco or GAP. You don't need to buy your kids clothes in GAP, but if you want to do that, the government aren't going to get the arm in.

This is my understanding as well.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-vocational-training-notice-70130

It boils down to how the VAT notice is drafted and the underlying legislation.

There are oddities even with VAT on children’s clothing and children’s school uniform.

One problem that's been identified is that there is no definition of the term “young children” in VAT law. Surprisingly, the 0% VAT threshold is based on how big an average child will be on their 14th birthday. So clothes for older or larger children are taxed – including their school uniforms.

If you are tiny and skinny you need never pay VAT on your clothing. Just buy children’s clothes.

As far as I know, Eton College does not have to charge VAT to school parents on school fees.

However, if tomorrow they start trying to sell mass Eton Memorabilia for commercial purposes worldwide with their logo on it, then they will have to charge VAT, if selling in the UK.

If registered as a charity, they just have to plough any profits back into the school. So they can spend on as many facilities as they want and hire as many teachers as they want. But they can’t start dishing out profits to shareholders or owners.
The money they do spend goes on local contractors and teaching salaries etc and keeping up old buildings and grounds. They cannot get away with hiring dodgy contractors who don’t pay tax and they have to put all their staff through PAYE. Unless someone here thinks they have a whole lot of people on zero hours contracts? Please speak up.

Yes, when you put it that way, Private schools actually being run like businesses is definitely NOT what we want!

'However, if tomorrow they start trying to sell mass Eton Memorabilia for commercial purposes worldwide with their logo on it, then they will have to charge VAT, if selling in the UK.'

😅at the idea Eton might have to start flogging pens and hoodies to make ends meet

'Is it though? I'm prettys sure the Charity Status and the no VAT on fees are separate issues.'

Charity status brings it's own tax advantages. Private schools are not charities.
It's that simple. Around 30% of private schools do not have charity status, and some how they 'limp' along on the ££££ in fees and endowments. Plucky little buggers.

Then take it up with the charity commission 🤷🏻‍♀️

Op, why don’t you do this? You obviously feel very strongly about it and have plenty of time on your hands.

https://www.withersworldwide.com/en-gb/insight/read/labour-party-policy-and-independent-schools

This article explains it quite well for non lawyers. I think!

Let’s say a new government whatever their nature initially bang 10 per cent VAT onto independent school fees. Then it can be upped in the future.
The practical issue you face is that the rich parents will prepay all fees before VAT comes in and the rich schools will create building works to offset VAT.
The small schools will suffer and fold. So the impact will most likely be felt by the smaller players. And the outcome to treasury won’t be worth it. At least not in the short term.

Which kind of proves my point, that removing charity status wouldn't affect the VAT on fees situation at all ...

Hate to break to it to you OP but some people earn more money than others 😂😂😂
Read the room

Or maybe go join some communist society if you don't like it 🤷‍♀️

They are charities - they operate for public benefit, most give means tested bursaries to some children and have facilities which are used by the community.

Other services which you pay for your kids such as tutoring and sports activities are also exempt from VAT, and can be charities if not running for a profit - do you think they should also charge VAT as the situation seems similar and also only open to parents able/willing to pay for it?

Not only are a lot of extracurricular activities exempt from VAT, but you can also pay for them through tax free childcare.

I disagree that they operate for the public benefit. Research has shown that very few students get fully funded places, and that the vast majority of bursary/scholarship money actually goes to families who are relatively affluent. Our local schools are a good example of this - they give lots of "means-tested" bursaries of £1k-2k to families who can afford to pay the balance themselves. Hardly helping the poorest!!

And yes, they do indeed offer the use of some facilities to the local community, generally in a way that not-so-subtly targets prospective parents. It's dressed up as service to the local community but it is in reality just marketing activities.

I am not arguing to close down private schools, but let's not pretend that they're beacons of community service. They exist primarily to perpetuate the privilege of the people who can afford to pay the fees.

'They are charities - they operate for public benefit'

Hilarious, you should try stand up. Actual charities should be absolutely incensed at this kind of ridiculous statement.

I don't think a charity doesn't need to just benefit the poorest in the community specifically to be a charity for public benefit - they do provide education to children and resources to the local community - just because not everyone can/will benefit or benefit equally doesn't mean they shouldn't receive the same tax advantages as organisations such as a local sports club, tutoring company ect (which you also need to pay for).

There are many products and services in the UK that are not Vatable and many charities that don't directly benefit the poorest.

If you aren't using a private school why would you feel strongly to make it more difficult or expensive for others that choose to? What benefit would it bring to you? Mostly all other educational services and products for children do not have VAT why would a school be different

"The place to discuss service charges from a business should be with that business shouldn’t it? Be a lot more constructive."

Have you grasped the concept of AIBU yet OP? You really are quite special, aren't you.

AIBU to think the price of milk has risen by 40%?
Stop moaning and speak to Tesco

AIBU to think house prices are increasing?
Stop morning and talk and talk to an estate agent.

AIBU would be like tumbleweed.

I agree that charities don't necessarily need to benefit the poorest. However, I do take issue with charitable status for organisations which typically benefit the wealthiest in our society. The vast majority of people who use private schools really aren't in need of charity, and I do not agree that these schools operate for the "public good".

As for why I think there should be VAT on school fees, I think they're a luxury that only relatively wealthy people can afford. I see no reason why VAT shouldn't be charged, as for most other luxury products and services. It's a good way of ensuring that those with wealth contribute fairly to society. And yes, I appreciate that adding VAT might price some parents out of the market, but I guess the same argument could be made about VAT on any other item.

If anyone followed your weird logic OP, nobody would ever be able to post anything in AIBU for fear of triggering someone somewhere.

AIBU to to be worried about my upcoming C-Section?

Who do you think you are posting about this when some of us are infertile??? You are entitled to be pregnant but don't moan about it on here. I don't like reading these threads in AIBU. Speak to a doctor.

AIBU to divorce DH?

How dare you ask questions like this when some of us do not have husbands!!! I am very triggered, I'll have you know. I declare you are allowed to be married, but not to mention anything about it on here. I am livid. Speak to a lawyer.