Page 12 | What standard of living do you think should be the minimum everyone can afford?

MondayAgainnn · 2023-05-01T15:35:36+00:00

What do you think the absolute basic minimum should be? I think everybody should be able to afford: Decent food Safe housing Any extra medical things needed, including dentistry Internet package as it is completely necessary nowadays Enough clothes to stay warm, dry, appropriate trainers for exercising etc Enough for some discretionary spending - obviously this is harder to quantify, but things like Netflix, a coffee, cinema tickets I feel should be a normal attainable part of life for everyone Enough to save a bit Whether it is through work or through benefits I feel everyone in society should be able to have a lifestyle that is dignified, basically comfortable and with room for treats. Not just subsistence level. What do you think the minimum should be?

Neededanewuserhandle · 02/05/2023 13:17

Partyandbullshit · 02/05/2023 12:59

Just look at America, an American UHNWI (and all US citizens for that matter) is required pay US taxes no matter where they reside in the world or where that wealth is earned. If they want to stop paying US taxes, they first need to renounce their US citizenship and deal with all the implications that incurs (especially when trying to run a business in the US). Even then the US have inserted specific clauses in their tax law that seeks to ensure anyone who does relinquish their citizenship for tax purposes may still be subject to certain tax and reporting obligations including being subject to an exit tax as if they’ve sold all assets and being required to file certain tax returns for up to 10 years.
The net result of that policy is that so few UHNWIs have left America that it doesn’t even register. A similar policy in the UK would take care of the tiny portion of UK citizens who would want to leave to avoid tax.

This is flawed. UHNWIs don’t fall into the category of citizenship and taxation like other people do. They strike individual deals with the IRS and government (directly or through lobbying) in order to pay less tax as a % than the middle classes and retain the same privileges as the rest of us (I live in the US).

Renouncing citizenship is for the “hoi polloi”: it takes a little time, the exit tax is around $30,000 last time I looked, and it’s meant to capture people with tens of millions only. The USA has close by tax havens which tailor bespoke deals for people with more than that but not enough to lobby government: Bermuda, the Bahamas, Cayman, USVI etc.

There was an article in the guardian a couple of weeks ago (sorry on phone, can’t link it) about the relative exodus of billionaires from Finland. Punitive taxes do lead to a brain and wealth drain. If they’re not leaving, it’s because it’s worth their while to stay. The EU will make it very difficult for member states to tailor their legislation like the US. The US is not a comparator for the EU, and the UK, only now coming out of the shadow of the EU, is going to go the way of the US. Almost the worst income (and health and educational etc) disparity of any developed nation in earth.

This is a moral issue. Taxation is just a representation of our beliefs and values. We all get the societies we deserve/vote for.

Our electoral system means the majority of us don't get what we voted for.

Reality25 · 02/05/2023 13:29

Interesting question.

Me personally:

Physically or mentally unable to work due to severe disability/impairment.

Full state support equivalent to full-time minimum wage. No housing benefit.
No time limit unless impairment/disability overcome.
Reviewed annually for eligibility.
Relocation loan is available and will be deducted evenly from next 6 pay periods.
Funds available for specialist equipment if applicable, on case by case basis.

Able-body and mind but lost job.

Full state support equivalent to full-time minimum wage for 3 months. No housing benefit.
Basic state support equivalent to 1/3 full-time minimum wage for 3 further months.
Zero regular financial support beyond 6 months. Job-seeking support in the form of CV and interview practice, and local job adverts will always be available.
Relocation loan is available and will be deducted evenly from first 6 pay periods of new job.
Refreshing future eligibility requires 5 years of paying tax above a threshold level.
If ineligible due to e.g. repeat job losses in quick succession then still eligible for basic state support (1/3 full-time min wage) for 3 months.
If still unemployed and have no money they can choose to live in centralised job-seeker accommodation instead of being homeless.

Looked after children who become adults.

Full state support equivalent to full-time minimum wage until they leave full-time education (inclusive of student maintenance loan if applicable).
After that they go to section 1) or 2).

Illegal immigrants.

Zero regular financial support.
Offshore immigration centre in Jersey/Isle of Wight/Isle of Man.
Basic food, water, clothing and room provided (military barracks-style). English, Maths and Science books provided up to A-Levels. British culture and history books also provided.
Deportation to country of origin if origin country accepts them back.
After 5 years without further crimes, they are permitted to join British society via a new legal 10-year visa route (starting at year 1 when they leave the centre) if they can pass CEFR A1 English. Access to job-seeking support and relocation loan will be provided. If after 12 months they are not in paid employment they can live in centralised job-seeker accommodation instead of being homeless.
Flight ticket always offered back to country of origin to encourage them to find their passport or identity documents.

The above is imo a good balance between compassion and empathy, encouraging responsible behaviour/self-improvement, and minimising the burden on net contributors.

Jellycatspyjamas · 02/05/2023 14:50

*3) Looked after children who become adults.

Full state support equivalent to full-time minimum wage until they leave full-time education (inclusive of student maintenance loan if applicable).
After that they go to section 1) or 2)*

This completely ignores the impact of care experience on children and young people who often have very disrupted education particularly in high school and for whom there are significant barriers into further/higher education. It also ignores the impact of trauma which impacts learning capacity and executive functioning - it also doesn’t consider that many care experienced young people need a lot of practical help to learn how to live independently which impacts employment prospects.

You can easily have care experienced young people leaving full time education but not able to sustain employment for some time afterwards, money is only the start of their needs and they will need financial support beyond a one year limit.

Jellycatspyjamas · 02/05/2023 14:52

After 5 years without further crimes, they are permitted to join British society via a new legal 10-year visa route (starting at year 1 when they leave the centre) if they can pass CEFR A1 English.

I assume by “illegal immigrants” you mean asylum seekers, or possibly those who have been trafficked?

Reality25 · 02/05/2023 16:08

Jellycatspyjamas · 02/05/2023 14:50

*3) Looked after children who become adults.

Full state support equivalent to full-time minimum wage until they leave full-time education (inclusive of student maintenance loan if applicable).
After that they go to section 1) or 2)*

This completely ignores the impact of care experience on children and young people who often have very disrupted education particularly in high school and for whom there are significant barriers into further/higher education. It also ignores the impact of trauma which impacts learning capacity and executive functioning - it also doesn’t consider that many care experienced young people need a lot of practical help to learn how to live independently which impacts employment prospects.

You can easily have care experienced young people leaving full time education but not able to sustain employment for some time afterwards, money is only the start of their needs and they will need financial support beyond a one year limit.

As mentioned, if they have a severe mental impairment they move to Section 1) and get continued funding. Logically funds for special equipment mentioned can also be used for things like assisted living etc.

Reality25 · 02/05/2023 16:24

Jellycatspyjamas · 02/05/2023 14:52

After 5 years without further crimes, they are permitted to join British society via a new legal 10-year visa route (starting at year 1 when they leave the centre) if they can pass CEFR A1 English.

I assume by “illegal immigrants” you mean asylum seekers, or possibly those who have been trafficked?

Anyone who has broken our immigration laws.

If they are a genuine victim of being trafficked against their will they should be treated as a victim of crime instead. They will be able to cooperate with authorities here and in their country of origin to prove their identity and be able to return to their country of origin free of charge.

Jellycatspyjamas · 02/05/2023 16:28

As mentioned, if they have a severe mental impairment they move to Section 1) and get continued funding. Logically funds for special equipment mentioned can also be used for things like assisted living etc.

Tell me you know nothing about looked after children without saying you know nothing about looked after children.

SouthCountryGirl · 02/05/2023 16:30

What's the point of assessing those of us annually who have incurable disabilities?

Noontimes · 02/05/2023 16:36

Reality25 · 02/05/2023 13:29

Interesting question.

Me personally:

Physically or mentally unable to work due to severe disability/impairment.

Full state support equivalent to full-time minimum wage. No housing benefit.
No time limit unless impairment/disability overcome.
Reviewed annually for eligibility.
Relocation loan is available and will be deducted evenly from next 6 pay periods.
Funds available for specialist equipment if applicable, on case by case basis.

Able-body and mind but lost job.

Full state support equivalent to full-time minimum wage for 3 months. No housing benefit.
Basic state support equivalent to 1/3 full-time minimum wage for 3 further months.
Zero regular financial support beyond 6 months. Job-seeking support in the form of CV and interview practice, and local job adverts will always be available.
Relocation loan is available and will be deducted evenly from first 6 pay periods of new job.
Refreshing future eligibility requires 5 years of paying tax above a threshold level.
If ineligible due to e.g. repeat job losses in quick succession then still eligible for basic state support (1/3 full-time min wage) for 3 months.
If still unemployed and have no money they can choose to live in centralised job-seeker accommodation instead of being homeless.

Looked after children who become adults.

Full state support equivalent to full-time minimum wage until they leave full-time education (inclusive of student maintenance loan if applicable).
After that they go to section 1) or 2).

Illegal immigrants.

Zero regular financial support.
Offshore immigration centre in Jersey/Isle of Wight/Isle of Man.
Basic food, water, clothing and room provided (military barracks-style). English, Maths and Science books provided up to A-Levels. British culture and history books also provided.
Deportation to country of origin if origin country accepts them back.
After 5 years without further crimes, they are permitted to join British society via a new legal 10-year visa route (starting at year 1 when they leave the centre) if they can pass CEFR A1 English. Access to job-seeking support and relocation loan will be provided. If after 12 months they are not in paid employment they can live in centralised job-seeker accommodation instead of being homeless.
Flight ticket always offered back to country of origin to encourage them to find their passport or identity documents.

The above is imo a good balance between compassion and empathy, encouraging responsible behaviour/self-improvement, and minimising the burden on net contributors.

Blimey! You do know that this country makes it impossible for refugees from e.g. Sudan to claim asylum legally dont you? So someone fleeing fighting Sudan gets here on a small boat (there is no other route, airlines will not take them as they do not have a visa, and the UK government provides no means for Sudanese refugees to get here)and gets treated no better than a dog??? Jeez!

Noontimes · 02/05/2023 16:37

It’s not a crime to claim asylum, it’s just our vile government claims that it is. Don’t fall for their lies.

Reality25 · 02/05/2023 16:47

Jellycatspyjamas · 02/05/2023 16:28

As mentioned, if they have a severe mental impairment they move to Section 1) and get continued funding. Logically funds for special equipment mentioned can also be used for things like assisted living etc.

Tell me you know nothing about looked after children without saying you know nothing about looked after children.

Ah yes, resorting to being disrespectful in a discussion - it's just a matter of time for the left-leaning demographic!

Not that it really matters but I do happen to have personal first-hand experience of looked after children and their transition into adult life.

Sweetladyjane · 02/05/2023 19:27

Why would I need to be assessed annually for a health condition that isn’t going to change?

Florenz · 02/05/2023 21:38

Sweetladyjane · 02/05/2023 19:27

Why would I need to be assessed annually for a health condition that isn’t going to change?

Because there has to be one system that works the best for everyone involved, and assessing everyone annually stops people from fooling the assessors just once and being able to access benefits for life with no further checks needed.

OnlyTheBravest · 03/05/2023 02:19

I think a full time minimum wage salay should cover
Enough to rent a decent studio/1 bed flat,
Utilities including broadband and mobile phone,
Council tax,
Food,
Travel,
And a small disposable income for clothes and entertainment.

For families 1 full and one part time worker should be able to cover above but be able to rent a 2 bed flat minimum .

I would like to see full time workers be able to have the basics without having to claim top ups. It would probably require employers to pay their staff more, massive amounts of social housing to be built with controlled rent set to a third of average pay for the local area and free childcare from 9 months including nights and weekends for shift workers.

SouthCountryGirl · 03/05/2023 10:32

Florenz · 02/05/2023 21:38

Because there has to be one system that works the best for everyone involved, and assessing everyone annually stops people from fooling the assessors just once and being able to access benefits for life with no further checks needed.

Show quote history

But it also wastes a lot of money and people's time. How does that work best for everyone?

Blossomtoes · 03/05/2023 10:47

SouthCountryGirl · 03/05/2023 10:32

But it also wastes a lot of money and people's time. How does that work best for everyone?

Show quote history

It’s not best for anyone. It’s absolutely shocking. The amount of stress it causes and the money it wastes are appalling.

Florenz · 03/05/2023 10:55

SouthCountryGirl · 03/05/2023 10:32

But it also wastes a lot of money and people's time. How does that work best for everyone?

Show quote history

It's the way that works best for everyone. You can't have a system where people get checked once, and if they can fool the assessor or bribe the assessor, they get benefits for life with no further checks. That would be insane. The system has to work best for everyone, so not just the people receiving the benefits, but the people paying for them as well. And to me, attending an assessment once a year in return for a year's money, isn't really that unreasonable or stressful.

Blossomtoes · 03/05/2023 11:07

You can have a system where people who quite obviously have a lifeline degenerative disability don’t have to go through a wasteful, stressful, pointless process. It doesn’t matter what you think about the stress, this process has caused people to commit suicide.

Blossomtoes · 03/05/2023 11:07

Lifelong, ffs!

SouthCountryGirl · 03/05/2023 11:10

Florenz · 03/05/2023 10:55

It's the way that works best for everyone. You can't have a system where people get checked once, and if they can fool the assessor or bribe the assessor, they get benefits for life with no further checks. That would be insane. The system has to work best for everyone, so not just the people receiving the benefits, but the people paying for them as well. And to me, attending an assessment once a year in return for a year's money, isn't really that unreasonable or stressful.

Show quote history

As you've clearly been through the bullshit that is the PIP assessment, (I was "lucky" to be assessed for ESA on paper) you'd know how unreasonable and stressful those assessments are.

Florenz · 03/05/2023 11:54

Blossomtoes · 03/05/2023 11:07

You can have a system where people who quite obviously have a lifeline degenerative disability don’t have to go through a wasteful, stressful, pointless process. It doesn’t matter what you think about the stress, this process has caused people to commit suicide.

I don't think you can, The system has to be the same for everyone otherwise it doesn't work. If it's not the same for everyone, who decides who it's not the same for and how do you ensure they are infallible?

Blossomtoes · 03/05/2023 12:30

I’ve literally just said who doesn’t need annual assessment.

Florenz · 03/05/2023 12:39

Blossomtoes · 03/05/2023 12:30

I’ve literally just said who doesn’t need annual assessment.

Why do they not need annual assessment?

Do you not think it leaves the system massively open to fraud if one assessment unlocks a lifetime of benefits? How much are those benefits worth?

Blossomtoes · 03/05/2023 12:43

What part of lifelong and degenerative are you having trouble understanding?

Porkandbeans1 · 03/05/2023 12:45

Florenz · 03/05/2023 10:55

It's the way that works best for everyone. You can't have a system where people get checked once, and if they can fool the assessor or bribe the assessor, they get benefits for life with no further checks. That would be insane. The system has to work best for everyone, so not just the people receiving the benefits, but the people paying for them as well. And to me, attending an assessment once a year in return for a year's money, isn't really that unreasonable or stressful.

Show quote history

I completely disagree. I used to work in a care home that supported adults with learning difficulties who had very challenging behaviour. These were people who were non verbal, violent, incontinent and unable in just about every way to take care of themselves. They would have to have their benefit entitlement reassessed. What an utter waste of money.