For being annoyed I was asked to stand on a bus because of dog allergies?

[anywayhereswonderwall]

I went to visit a friend in London today and I took my dog. It's worth noting she is a mini poodle, and hypoallergenic, and well behaved. You can barely even tell she's there. I got on the bus as part of my journey. It was the middle of the day so there were a few empty seats (but not loads).

I got on and sat down, and the woman a few rows behind me said 'can you move , I have a dog allergy'. I apologised and moved a few rows forwards, the furthest forwards I could go and still get a seat.

She then shouted forwards 'not far enough, you're going have to stand at the front'.

I was confused, but did it. I spent the rest of the 35 minute journey standing right at the front of the bus while the woman was 3/4 of the way along, sitting.

I did what she said for the journey, but when I got off I felt annoyed and I'm not sure if I'm justified.

I don’t like dogs, or any animals out in public, let alone public transport, but if I were the woman I would have moved instead, I would never ask someone else to move.

His needs should be met by YOU. Not the random cafe owner who had to turn away paying customers who probably won’t go back again after you made him unceremoniously kick them out.

I hope you spent a lot of money to make up for it… I mean really, what if customer after customer had turned up with dogs? Would you have made him turn them all away, just because you lacked the foresight to ask if it was a dog friendly establishment before you went in?

Oh that’s odd!’ I’m allergic to dogs and yet poodles don’t affect me…
And poodles were bred with labradors specifically to become guide dogs for blind people with allergies.

Moving to another seat is one thing if you’re asked politely. She didn’t ask OP politely so I doukfng have moved at all.

If places allow dogs, people aren’t doing anything wrong by taking their dogs to them. Manage your own needs and those of your kids and stop e or ting others U.K. change what they’re entitled to do.

*Manage your own needs and those of your kids and stop expecting others to change what they’re entitled to do.

I hate this culture now of taking dogs everywhere. Absolutely disgusting for them to be in eating places too! (Except guide dogs). Wtf are they being allowed in shops now?!

Don't be ridiculous. Dogs have been allowed on buses for years. How else do you expect people without cars to transport their pets?

Surely if your son is terrified of dogs, you go to a cafe that isn’t dog friendly? How would you respond to a blind person coming in with their guide dog?… would their disability be less important than your sons?
I am allergic to dogs and can only tolerate non moulting breeds, but I wouldn’t dare make a business owner throw out someone, I would simply just move away..
However I also wouldn’t take my own two poodles into a cafe or on public transport… dogs want to walk in the forest or park not around shops.

Angelo

"His needs should be met by YOU. Not the random cafe owner who had to turn away paying customers who probably won’t go back again after you made him unceremoniously kick them out.

I hope you spent a lot of money to make up for it… I mean really, what if customer after customer had turned up with dogs? Would you have made him turn them all away, just because you lacked the foresight to ask if it was a dog friendly establishment before you went in?"

Scary lack of empathy for a person with severe disabilities. The poster IS meeting son's needs by standing up for his rights. Not every cafe trip is planned. The idea of having to ask if an animal comes before a human with a severe disability .

This 'what if customer after customer turned up...' so what. Cafe loses £50. But those many dog owners didn't turn up in that probably half hour the pp was there. Just like cafe owner wouldn't tell an elderly person languishing over a cream tea to get a move on because they're taking up a table that a big group could use.

Also getting mother-bashing vibes on this thread where them looking out for their kids is 'entitled' but people who want to take animals into eateries aren't.

You're a much better person than me, OP. Where does it stop - there are so many allergens now! Someone is allergic to the pollen you have in your hair so you have to move? Someone is allergic to grass on your muddy trainers so you have to move? Someone is allergic to the pet dander on your coat so you have to move?

Chances are she just doesn't like dogs or having your dog close to her and uses this excuse. The onus is on people to manage themselves on public transport and not expect everyone else to accommodate them. Obviously exceptions exist and they relate more to people not being well or strong enough to stand - this woman was fit and healthy and could have moved herself if she was this worried about her allergies.

If it was your child with the dog allergy and a dog got on the bus, what would you have done?

thats a no-brainier - you remove the child from the source of the allergen as quickly as possible. You don’t stop to argue, because that could be fatal.

anyone who has any experience of anaphalaxis knows this is the only safe course of action.

Dog-hating crazies are in full force on this thread. Must be hard to be them 😂 It's not up to me to manage other people's children/allergies. If they ask nicely I will be polite, but it's up to the individual with the issue to avoid places with dogs. Dog-owners are paying customers too and if they have a right to be there, it's up to the person with the issue to leave.

@Fourteenhouses you were in the wrong.

If your son can't handle dogs it's up to you to avoid places dogs are allowed to be in.

Surely it is up to the business owner and their preference for a particular customer? I was in a local park cafe where dogs are allowed in but it is not promoted as such and two dog owners got asked to leave got asked to leave as the dogs were small but yappy. A mother from a group of Mums with babies complained so I suppose the manager decides in that instance he cares more for none dog owners' custom. The dog owners' objected but I heard him explain that it was lunchtime and all sorts of people, office workers, Mums have come to relax for a nice lunch not have to listen to the dogs.

So what if my hypothetical severely autistic child comes in with their emotional support dog that they can't do without? Whose needs win here? In both case we have people with disabilities with conflicting needs.

If I had to pick, I'd say the person who was there first should get first consideration. I'd hope that the poster in question would have just quietly left themselves if they'd arrived second and not insisted on the other people leaving. (My solution would be that one party sits inside and the person with the dog sits outside, or in another room, depending on the set up).

I don't know what the answer is but dogs are allowed in public places so the rest of us have to find a way to deal with it. I think the woman on the train in OP's post was over the top. She should have moved herself or accepted OP's first move. I suspect she just doesn't like dogs and wanted to make things as difficult as possible for the dog owner.

Wow, how compassionate of you, pretty tricky when dogs are everywhere.

It’s nothing new

my dad had our dog in his general store in the 1970s.

Hmm. I'm trying to think this through, as the mother of 2 children with (quite different: autism, and wheelchair) disabilities and a member of a family with deep fondness for animals of all sorts, and a lawyer (but not originally trained in UK, though still paying attention).

I think we all need to stop and think through some basic principles for deciding these issues.

1. People always come before animals. This doesn't mean you hurt the animals, obvs, just they come after. This also doesn't include seeing-eye dogs and other assistance dogs, who are specially trained, very expensively trained btw, and can be certified for proof. More to the point, we have them because they are essential for the person not for the dog.

2. One disability doesn't trump another. If you're on a bus with one space for a wheelchair, you don't have to get off for the new person in a wheelchair (though the bus should damn well be able to fit more than one wheelchair passenger! I speak as one with a child in a wheelchair). Which leads to the next two questions, morally, logically, and legally:

3. Are allergies a legitimate disability? Generally, if your allergy is severe, you'll be carrying an ephipen or two and if you're sensible a doctor's letter. I'm prepared to agree that at that point it's a disability. But not if you just need an antihistamine. (I speak as one with quite bad allergies to dander and a family obsessed with cats and horses...)

4. Autism is a legitimate disability. And comes with the Statements, PIPs, DLAs, and indeed cards to prove it. (I speak as one with a child on spectrum.)

5. Owners of private spaces have a lot of leeway to choose whom to let in. You are not required to let just anyone or any dog into your house, for instance. In fact, the law will not necessarily side with someone who insists on taking their seeing-eye dog into your private home, though that may depend on whether they're entering to fix your boiler by appointment or to have a friendly dinner. (The law suggests you should have been advised in advance that the boiler-fixer came with a seeing-eye dog, but there's no specific precedent!) Shops, cafes, and privately-owned but publicly-serving services are still in a complicated, common-law realm: generally speaking, no matter how Christian you are, you may not refuse entry to your cafe to a gay couple, but if you bake cakes from your home perhaps you may refuse to bake that same gay couple's wedding cake. This naturally gets even more messy if another non-resident non-owner has grounds (legitimate grounds? please define legitimate?) to request you keep a dog out, even if you advertise as pet-friendly. But it's not entirely up to the cafe owner, because a cafe, or bus, however privately-owned, is not a private home. (As far as I know, no one has yet tested the law on buses, but they fall into an even more complex area because they are, even if not publicly run as in London but owned by private companies as in more rural areas, generally agreed to be a public space.)

6. Pet dogs, like most animals, especially if you do love them, deserve space. Do not try to keep a dog in a small flat in a city just because you love dogs; that's unkind to them. You must have outdoor space for them to run and feel free. If you can't temporarily put them in a pet carrier for the bus, probably you shouldn't be taking them on the bus at all. But that's my and my family's view. We love dogs and don't think they always need the same things people need.

7. Pets also come with costs that are optional (vs non-optional for disabled people). Putting it another way, you chose to have a dog at some point, even if it no longer feels like a choice now you have the dog; no one chooses to have a disability. So if you decide to have a dog, you should love them enough to take them by taxi (if not by walking) to the nearest vet. It will not cost you more, cumulatively, than their food. If you want a dog (especially a large dog) you should be able to walk them without going inside people places. If you want to go to a cafe or restaurant, you can legitimately be asked to choose between eating inside or having a pet with you, tying it up outside or leaving it at home for an hour. You wouldn't expect to take an animal to work, after all, unless they were trained and certified assistance dogs.

8. Food-related places like grocery stores, cafes, and restaurants are a whole extra issue. The UK is almost the only country in the world, not even excepting France, where people imagine dogs and other animals not small enough to be in an enclosed pet carrier should be allowed in food shops, let alone restaurants. This is just a British thing.

9. In general, do not confuse need with your feelings or the convenience of your mid-walk cafe break : not for people, and certainly not for pets. This is not legally relevant, but it does seem to me some PP need to get a grip. Your pet is not a person, no matter how much you love them.

Where I live, dogs can only enter public transit if they are in an enclosed carrier, unless of course they are a guide dog etc. I think that is a good rule.

Someone queried about shops allowing dogs
Heres just a few big names that allow all dogs

Waterstones
Apple
John Lewis
Hobbycraft
Wilko
Mountain Warehouse
Fat face
White stuff
Dobbies
Oliver Bonas

and many more

@Fourteenhouses after that experience do you now ask whether a cafe is dog friendly before ordering? and then leave if it is?

I agree it's up to businesses to decide. Not up to the customer with the allergies/issues to kick other people out of a place where they have a right to be (if the business has allowed them in and is dog-friendly).

Halfords do too 😉

And Homebase (and probably B&Q and similar stores although I never tried)

Dogs are allowed on buses. If you are allergic, I suggest you talk to you local bus company. In the meantime, dogs are allowed on public transport. What are you going to do about assistance dogs? I think allergies to dogs are rarely in the fatal category. You were being unreasonable OP for standing at the front of the bus. Their allergy would not have been a fatal one.