To think this rule with working hours is a little unfair

Kennedydavenport · 2023-04-23T11:14:20+00:00

I work in the afternoons, we start work at 1:50 where we receive our handover but are only paid from 2pm. We were reminded in a recent meeting that we must not be arriving any later than 1:45 ish to be ready to receive handover at 1:50 (though it doesn't always start on time). Yeah it's only 10/15 mins a day but that's almost an hour a week, 47 hours a year if you take out holidays. I'm paid hourly too at £11 an hour, not salaried. Over £500 a year unpaid. Am I just being petty? We also have 30 mins unpaid taken out of our wages but never, ever have I had a full 30 mins break, honestly about 3 times in 4 months.

SistersNotCisters · 23/04/2023 12:22

Wow I could have written this very thing. Required to come to work and be clocked in and ready for work with a pen and paper in your hand for handover 15 minutes before you start getting paid. Then getting half an hour of wages taken for a 30 min break you can only hope to get because residents cannot be left unattended or requiring care within an allotted time.
To make it worse, staff meetings and training on your non working time is unpaid but mandatory. There's also a good 60+ hours of unpaid at home online training. For a quid over last year's minimum wage.
So clearly, I have no advice for you. But you do have my sympathies

Fgfgfg · 23/04/2023 12:34

You are not being petty. If you multiply your £500 by the number of staff, how much profit is the company making from your combined free labour? If your shift is more than 6 hours then you're legally entitled to your break and I would ask them what they intend to do to enable you, and everyone else, to take that break. There are usually people who will tell you that YABU but you're not a charity and your employer is taking the piss. I've got a relatively well paid, salaried job that is contracted at 40 hours/week but with the expectation that I work over 'as and when needed'. Except it's not, it's all the time so I've started saying no a lot more.

C152 · 23/04/2023 13:06

Being 10-15min early for work, particularly where a handover is required, is acceptable. I think it's unbearably cheap for employers not to pay staff for their lunch break in the first place, and really poor management not to insist staff actually take their breaks.

Cherrysoup · 23/04/2023 13:06

Can I dip in? A friend works for one of the emergency services. He’s been hauled up recently for turning up to work half uniform/half civvy clothes at the time he should be starting eg a 9pm shift. He then needs to collect various bits of essential equipment that needs to go with him on jobs. Everyone else turns up slightly before so if they get a call, they can go immediately and not have to delay. Obviously, it’s life and death scenarios. He’s salaried, breaks aren’t guaranteed as he can’t just up and leave a situation. He says he’s doing the right thing, his big boss is unhappy with him. Is he right, morally, technically or whatever?

Mabelface · 23/04/2023 13:09

Argos got into a lot of trouble for the same thing and had to payout to staff and ex staff. They also risk employees working for less than minimum wage. They're essentially stealing from you, taking time that is yours unpaid. Might be worth a chat with ACAS.

misssunshine4040 · 23/04/2023 13:09

Cherrysoup · 23/04/2023 13:06

Can I dip in? A friend works for one of the emergency services. He’s been hauled up recently for turning up to work half uniform/half civvy clothes at the time he should be starting eg a 9pm shift. He then needs to collect various bits of essential equipment that needs to go with him on jobs. Everyone else turns up slightly before so if they get a call, they can go immediately and not have to delay. Obviously, it’s life and death scenarios. He’s salaried, breaks aren’t guaranteed as he can’t just up and leave a situation. He says he’s doing the right thing, his big boss is unhappy with him. Is he right, morally, technically or whatever?

Salaried? No he's not right to do this. I would have a conversation about changing the shift pattern or making back time elsewhere etc

Sausagerolex · 23/04/2023 13:12

Talk to Acas
Do you have a union rep?

PickledPurplePickle · 23/04/2023 13:12

C152 · 23/04/2023 13:06

Being 10-15min early for work, particularly where a handover is required, is acceptable. I think it's unbearably cheap for employers not to pay staff for their lunch break in the first place, and really poor management not to insist staff actually take their breaks.

Why would employers pay for lunch breaks when employees aren’t working?

Cherrysoup · 23/04/2023 13:13

misssunshine4040 · 23/04/2023 13:09

Salaried? No he's not right to do this. I would have a conversation about changing the shift pattern or making back time elsewhere etc

Show quote history

Should have added: if it’s quiet, the big boss often lets a couple of people go early, ensuring fairness, of course and he thinks he’s still entitled to this. A team mate might still be out on a job, having turned up 15 minutes early to be ready to go out at 9, but you can’t just leave the job. This doubly makes me cringe that he’s insisting on turning up at the time the shift starts.

Ilovechees3 · 23/04/2023 13:14

I used to work in customer services working 8.30 - 5pm. We were told we had to be ready to start work at 8.30, which is fine but because our computer systems were so slow it could take up to 15 minutes to open everything. We were expected to start early to make sure we were ready for 8.30, with no recompense. Also if you had been off the previous week you were encouraged to login to your work emails on the weekend to catch up before going back to work on the Monday. You could potentially have a hundred emails if you had been off for a week. I asked if this extra time would be paid, it was a definite NO.

I turned on my PC at 8.30 and after annual leave I allocated myself an hour to catch up with emails, nothing was ever said to me.
I appreciate you have to have some give and take but not just one side only.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 23/04/2023 13:16

No, this isn't fair.

As an employer, I expect employees to be ready to start work at their contracted start time, ie not arrive and then spend work time faffing around in the kitchen making their breakfast etc.

But if they are expected to arrive at a certain time in order to receive a work-related handover, then I would be fully expecting to pay them for that time.

And yes, if they have a 30 minute unpaid break, they should certainly be allowed to take that, and indeed, they should be actively encouraged to do so.

BloomstoShrooms · 23/04/2023 13:29

Flexibility has to work both ways. If it's all on you (arriving early, sacrificing your break) YANBU.

Throwncrumbs · 23/04/2023 13:35

Used to not be paid for an hours break in a 14 hour shift where you rarely got even 10 minutes to go to the loo. And never once got paid the extra hour overnight when the clocks went back but got the hour deducted when the clocks went forward. It’s shitty working in private healthcare, (just as it is in the NHS) just as short staffed because the staff turnover is really high. Nurses think they might be treated better moving to private but they are not!

Showdogworkingdog · 23/04/2023 13:40

Your employer is a CF imo. Fun fact, I once offered my unsolicited advice on this once while waiting to pay in a branch of The Works. The supervisor was telling the staff member to be there 15 mins before her allotted start time so I pointed out to her that’s fine as long as she’s paid for that time, otherwise she’s being asked to work an hour and a quarter a week/5 hours a month for no pay. I’m salaried but that sort of meanness really riles me and I couldn’t help myself. Your start time is your start time, if you need to handover you should be paid for it.

JudgeRudy · 23/04/2023 13:40

I'm starting a new job tomorrow. I'm already rehersing some key phrases so I start as I mean to go on.
"Yes, you're in luck, l can stay late and help out. Would you like me to just leave early one day or do l need to book overtime?"
"OK, yes I can do that. Just checking but do you want me to prioritise this over Task A?"
" Late? Really? My email said the meeting started at 9am. Was it actually 8:45?"

Getting your uniform on, grabbing a cuppa and being in the staff room for start of shift is done in your time. Handover is definitely 'at work' and you should be paid accordingly. Some companies rely on you being intimidated and just following the crowd. Entirely up to you how you proceed. Do you get supervision/appraisals? Get that done and in writing (email) then stand your ground next day. I wouldn't be surprised if someone then marks you down as a trouble maker and they then decide you're not up to scratch and dismiss you. If you have an recent positive appraisal this will help support your case if there's backlash.
Ultimately though you're speaking with the wrong people. MN can advise and colleagues can grumble together but if no one acts....

Kyse · 23/04/2023 13:41

Cherrysoup · 23/04/2023 13:06

Can I dip in? A friend works for one of the emergency services. He’s been hauled up recently for turning up to work half uniform/half civvy clothes at the time he should be starting eg a 9pm shift. He then needs to collect various bits of essential equipment that needs to go with him on jobs. Everyone else turns up slightly before so if they get a call, they can go immediately and not have to delay. Obviously, it’s life and death scenarios. He’s salaried, breaks aren’t guaranteed as he can’t just up and leave a situation. He says he’s doing the right thing, his big boss is unhappy with him. Is he right, morally, technically or whatever?

No, he has to be ready to start his shift on time
I have to be at work 10 mins early to be able to log in on time so that's what I do
Same when I worked for the NHS/waitressing/carer etc

Conkersinautumn · 23/04/2023 13:42

The managers can't plan schedules for shit, can they?! If there's a 15 min handover then that is literally work not getting ready time. In which case shifts need to start at 8.15 so staff can finish at 8.30 OR have overlapping staff, which is also very handy for breaks as well.

GoodChat · 23/04/2023 13:46

C152 · 23/04/2023 13:06

Being 10-15min early for work, particularly where a handover is required, is acceptable. I think it's unbearably cheap for employers not to pay staff for their lunch break in the first place, and really poor management not to insist staff actually take their breaks.

I don't understand your logic here. It's ok to expect you to turn up earlier than your contracted start time, unpaid, but it's not ok to not pay you for a legally enforced break when you're not benefitting the company?

GoodChat · 23/04/2023 13:50

No, he has to be ready to start his shift on time
I have to be at work 10 mins early to be able to log in on time so that's what I do

I disagree. It's not my fault if my employer has a shit computer system that takes 10 minutes to log into. That's part of my working day. I'm not getting in earlier to facilitate their systems.

Kyse · 23/04/2023 13:53

GoodChat · 23/04/2023 13:50

No, he has to be ready to start his shift on time
I have to be at work 10 mins early to be able to log in on time so that's what I do

I disagree. It's not my fault if my employer has a shit computer system that takes 10 minutes to log into. That's part of my working day. I'm not getting in earlier to facilitate their systems.

But I can't arrive at my start time AND be ready to start work
I need to be ready to take calls at my start time. Could possibly cut it to about 6 mins but there's various systems I have to log into to be ready to start. If I'm not logged on at my start time then I'm late

thanksamillion · 23/04/2023 13:54

If you are paid close to minimum wage then your employer is probably breaching minimum wage laws. You can report them to HMRC and they do take action. Or you could point this out to management/HR first and see if they act.

BeetleBailey · 23/04/2023 13:56

ALDI do this. They want you to have cashed up your till's change

Didn't mention it at interview, must have forgotten, strange that

They also HATE you taking the break you're allowed by law

Needless to say I don't work there anymore

Also expected you to go after shoplifters!

GoodChat · 23/04/2023 13:58

@Kyse yeah I've worked somewhere like that before. I told them they're welcome to log in on my behalf and get my system ready for me, and I'd be at my desk on time, but I wouldn't be ready to start work at that time until their system allowed it. It's nonsense.

Rosebel · 23/04/2023 14:03

We have to be 15 minutes early for work to set up the room but it's unpaid. 30 minutes for lunch unpaid. We're supposed to get a 10 minute break but think I've had it once in 9 months. Meetings are paid but can often mean a 10 hour shift becomes a 12 or 13 hour shift.
It riles me because it's only the early starters that have to be 15 minutes early. If you start later then just come in a minute or two early. Feels very unfair.

Howdoesitworkagain · 23/04/2023 14:11

C152 · 23/04/2023 13:06

Being 10-15min early for work, particularly where a handover is required, is acceptable. I think it's unbearably cheap for employers not to pay staff for their lunch break in the first place, and really poor management not to insist staff actually take their breaks.

No, you’ve got this the wrong way round. If shifts have to overlap for handover, that should be shown in schedules and should be paid accordingly.

It’s normal for lunch breaks to be unpaid.