Page 6 | to not understand the "entertainment value" of true crime

Nimbostratus100 · 2023-04-20T18:35:49+00:00

I understand the enjoyment of murder mysteries, excitement, interesting characters, mystery aspect etc. I dont understand the "enjoyment" of "true crime" where real people have suffered and died and been bereaved. The thread about Jonbenet for example, why are people enjoying "documentaries" and feeling they can speak authoritvly about the death a poor little girl, thousands of miles away about which they in reality know nothing, but feel like they can slag of members of her family anyway? Ive just gone onto itv player to find something to while away a few hours, and find myself being offer a whole plethera of "true crime" stuff. No thanks, what on earth is fun or relaxing being a spectator to other people's grief, pain and misery? I just dont understand what sort of person enjoys that. I hope you will enjoy it just as much if you are ever the subject of one of these dramas.

StrawberryWater · 21/04/2023 10:32

StrawberryWater · 21/04/2023 10:30

I personally love a bit of true crime. I’ll consume books, tv shows and YouTube stuff.

The only issue I have with the more modern stuff is that it sensationalises and makes “sexy” the serial killers (especially in the case of Buddy and Dahmer) and I know you’ve always gotten that to an extent it seems to be a little overboard at the moment.

I watch and read because I want to understand why people do the things they do. I don’t consume it to get a blow by blow account of the injuries they inflicted on their victims and how good looking the perpetrators are.

Simon Whistler has a YouTube crime series called The Casual Criminalist (he also has a show called Into The Shadows which is about the darker side of life) which is really good for giving details but not graphically so. He also likes to highlight the victims and call out these killers for their disgusting behaviour.

Bundy not Buddy. 🙄

MargaretThursday · 21/04/2023 10:36

I think part of it is to feel safe. To feel/prove that it couldn't happen to them.
That's why people are so keen to prove MM or JonBenet's family did it because it it was them then they don't need to worry about it happening to their dc.

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 10:43

MargaretThursday · 21/04/2023 10:36

I think part of it is to feel safe. To feel/prove that it couldn't happen to them.
That's why people are so keen to prove MM or JonBenet's family did it because it it was them then they don't need to worry about it happening to their dc.

Yes. People want a feeling of resolution. Order restored.

Xrays · 21/04/2023 10:43

I guess the thing about making Bundy and Dahmer “sexy” and people not liking that is that there were, by all accounts, attractive men. I mean now we look at them - and others like them - and feel repulsed because we know what they’re capable of, but the reason they were able to entice so many people into their reach is because they were attractive. That’s why they (understandably) chose Evan Peters to play Dahmer and Zac Efron to play Bundy in the recent dramatisations. It makes people uncomfortable because it is uncomfortable. They don’t look like the back end of a bus, women (and men in Dahmers case) found them attractive.

Xrays · 21/04/2023 10:44

*they were

Nounoufgs · 21/04/2023 10:48

I now turn off any serial milker type mystery especially if they linger on unclothes female corpses. Not for me.

Equally any “set in the White House with lots of talking punctuated by shoot outs” is duller than dull in my opinion.

I think re missing people and mysteries- people just want to know what happened with certainty. It’s the lack of resolution that intrigues people.

I will watch mysteries and thrillers if they have

a complex plot
good characterisation and friendship groups
attractive scenery, weather or moody lighting
sympathetic characters in some way. I am amazed at the amount of unredeemably bad characters whose point of view we have to put up with.
an interesting perspective, or as others have said a focus on investigation

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 10:48

Xrays · 21/04/2023 10:43

I guess the thing about making Bundy and Dahmer “sexy” and people not liking that is that there were, by all accounts, attractive men. I mean now we look at them - and others like them - and feel repulsed because we know what they’re capable of, but the reason they were able to entice so many people into their reach is because they were attractive. That’s why they (understandably) chose Evan Peters to play Dahmer and Zac Efron to play Bundy in the recent dramatisations. It makes people uncomfortable because it is uncomfortable. They don’t look like the back end of a bus, women (and men in Dahmers case) found them attractive.

TV and Film love good looking people. They love blood guts and gore. They love sensation. It’s entertainment, it the circus, it’s the freak show that draws in the punters.

This is all well and good, but when you give real life crimes, where victims relatives are still alive, the sensational freak show circus treatment because the perpetrators were good looking, is tasteless and unethical.

Nounoufgs · 21/04/2023 10:48

Serial killer not milker 😁

Goodread1 · 21/04/2023 10:53

It's morbid curiosity as. horrifically damaged people as Psychios, Nut jobs ect who are freaks of Nature,
Why they are psychological mentally wired like that,

Is it more of Nature or Nuture,?

Is it cause their childhood backgrounds for e.g was so psychological damaged by their parents , that it's created a monster?

Or
Is it cause of their mind abnormality wired in such a disturbing way that's why they are like that?

How can someone come from a backgrounds that is extremely traumatic in every sense or allmost every sense?

Have no brush with the law and yet someone else could have had good fortune to come from a background that's privileged, and yet commit a heinous crime then?

How can two people come from same backgrounds and yet one stay on straight and narrow and the other turn to crime for e.g becoming a drug dealer or turning to burglaries to fund a drug habit ect?

Fascinating subject,

I am so intrigued I am thinking of becoming a criminal mind psychologyist or I like to work in a female run prison as a Arts and crafts tutor

I had a run in with a female psychopath

Who has been serving time in a womens prison , because she kept her flatmate hostage in their flat for several days and pushed that person down the stairs,

She was articulate person to speak to ,
Not someone you would think would commit a crime like that,

She had come from extremely damaged childhood background

leatherboundbooks · 21/04/2023 11:07

I don't watch for gory details, but to learn more about how they are caught, how the procedures work, how new technology an help unlock unsolved murders, DNA for example, with Sutcliffe it reminds you of how things were in those days, how women were thought of, and it's important to remember, or young women to learn now mysogynistic the police were. How bloody stupid the police were, fixating on the geirdie voice, threatening the pc who worked out who it was, as proven by the guy they eventually brought in, all that sort of stuff. How they had ignored other victims both those who had survived and those who hadn't, it is so shocking
I don't suppose I'll ever really learn how people. Can do these awful things and still live amongst us and seem reasonable.people. How random some of these discoveries of murderers are. Thinking about Colin pitchfork the first murderer caught by DNA, who almost wasn't because he paid a friend to give a DNA sample for him so he wasn't picked up on, he was only caught when someone overheard him or the friend telling someone about what he had done and she eventually told the police, all so very random and he could have so easily got away with the murders
I hate the violence and once turned off a programme about the krays because it was too violent. I'd not go on a ripper. Tour glorifying the ripper, but would pay my respects to the victims and read about their real lives, there is a book by one of Sutcliffe 's victims how she coped afterwards, if people are happy to share that I am interested in that

MisanthropistToTheCore · 21/04/2023 11:28

Xrays · 21/04/2023 10:05

Completely agree, and this is the aspect of it all that fascinates me.

Ted Bundy worked on a suicide hotline. 😳 Christopher Halliwell was so well liked amongst his peers and customers as a taxi driver women used to actually ring up and request him as they felt safe getting home with him as their taxi driver. 😳 Dennis Nilsen worked in the job centre advising vulnerable people how to get their rightful benefits and help. I find little bits like that absolutely fascinating. These aren’t “monsters” in the sense of them being some sort of supernatural, non human being, these are people with self awareness and the ability to empathise with others - even if deep down they don’t. Or the ability to compartmentalise to the point they have several different layers to their own being. Who knows.

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Absolutely. The Bundy thing is very interesting. The book by Ann Rule (who was his friend and worked at the hotline with him) is fascinating.

MisanthropistToTheCore · 21/04/2023 11:36

wednesdaynamesep · 21/04/2023 10:15

@MisanthropistToTheCore

I personally find it fascinating that you think Dahmer shouldn’t be seen as a person. He was a person. I think one of the most dangerous things we can do is to shove killers like him in a box marked ‘monster’ and pretend that they aren’t human.

Totally. I was struck by this wrt Ed Kemper who was utterly barbaric and horrific. But the people who meet him describe him as personable and putting them at ease, intelligent, interesting etc. I can't help wondering if he'd decided to become a president of a dodgy country instead of being a serial killer, if he'd have done very well.

Yep!

I think it’s easier to treat people inhumanely if we do not see them as human in the first place. But I’m against the death penalty — I don’t see how a society can take the moral high ground with murder when they are choosing to kill as a punishment. It’s illogical and unethical. If we see prison generally as a place where we should be encouraging people to rehabilitate with the aim of rejoining society (I’m not suggesting we release serial killers) then we have to work towards seeing criminals as fully fleshed people and not write them off for committing a crime. Holding someone accountable and punishing them does not mean we remove their humanity. I find it bizarre we expect people who have killed to somehow exist in this little killing vacuum.

We are animals. We all have the capacity to kill. It just comes down to our choices.

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 11:39

It is starting to annoy me, all these responses to someone saying (wrongly) that I didn’t think they should be seen as ‘human’ when I was saying the opposite. I think it is wrong for them/their crimes to be sensationalised.

No one said they shouldn’t be seen/portrayed as human.

MisanthropistToTheCore · 21/04/2023 11:39

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 10:29

I think you don’t really understand what I mean.

Des was able to humanise Dennis Neilson brilliantly, I ended up with a much better understanding of his crimes, what motivated them, which I think weren’t too dissimilar to Dahmer’s - wanting the company of someone beautiful, but resenting their free will, not wanting them to be able to say no or leave. He was dehumanised less than Dahmer imo.

I think the gratuitous gory voyeurism from Dahmer’s perspective was perverse on the part of the makers. I don’t feel any better off having the graphic detail on him getting off on his crimes as though I am enjoying them with him. I don’t enjoy watching gory movies or violent ones. The makers obviously do enjoy violence and gore and assumes others are the same.

I did think the first episode was well done, but the back story was in poor taste. I listened to some of the taped interviews on a different programme and I think there was a bit of fabrication going on to try to make his behaviour make sense in the dramatisation. The makers seem to believe in ‘100% nurture’ rather than ‘nature’, which is understandable when confronted with something so bizarre, you want something to explain or justify it, but that doesn’t mean that thing exists and you end up unfairly blaming the parents.

Ted Bundy was able to do that - he told loads of lies about his mum that everyone lapped up, to justify his actions, because people would rather think that a boy abused by his mother would go on to kill women as a man, than someone, with nothing out of the ordinary in his childhood, would go out and murder women entirely of his own volition. We can’t stand the lack of explanation. I think film-makers do us a disservice when they make stuff up to satisfy our preference for a made up convincing narrative over the truth which doesn’t make sense.

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Gore is part of life, gore is part of Dahmer’s crimes. I don’t think sanitising what he did helps us to understand the reality. I don’t think they were glorified. Your disgust of them is also precisely why I think we do need to know (collectively, I mean).

Apart from a little artistic licence in the sense of combining a couple of the characters to focus on fewer characters overall, the show was accurately done.

So yes, I understand you. I just don’t agree with you.

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 11:41

@MisanthropistToTheCore can you acknowledge that you got the wrong end of the stick of what I was saying there please, instead of accepting agreement with your take.

MisanthropistToTheCore · 21/04/2023 11:42

Xrays · 21/04/2023 10:43

I guess the thing about making Bundy and Dahmer “sexy” and people not liking that is that there were, by all accounts, attractive men. I mean now we look at them - and others like them - and feel repulsed because we know what they’re capable of, but the reason they were able to entice so many people into their reach is because they were attractive. That’s why they (understandably) chose Evan Peters to play Dahmer and Zac Efron to play Bundy in the recent dramatisations. It makes people uncomfortable because it is uncomfortable. They don’t look like the back end of a bus, women (and men in Dahmers case) found them attractive.

Exactly this. It’s also why people are scared to confront that — it’s too close for comfort. The idea a man they may be attracted to could turn on them.

This is real life. Bundy and Dahmer were undeniably attractive men. Both were intelligent and articulate.

MisanthropistToTheCore · 21/04/2023 11:42

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 11:41

@MisanthropistToTheCore can you acknowledge that you got the wrong end of the stick of what I was saying there please, instead of accepting agreement with your take.

No, because I understood what you were saying. What you’re asking for is my agreement. I don’t agree.

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 11:43

MisanthropistToTheCore · 21/04/2023 11:42

No, because I understood what you were saying. What you’re asking for is my agreement. I don’t agree.

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I never said once, they shouldn’t be treated as human and instead monstered. That’s what you said.

MisanthropistToTheCore · 21/04/2023 11:47

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 11:43

I never said once, they shouldn’t be treated as human and instead monstered. That’s what you said.

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You said the show depicting motivations helped make him sympathetic. I directly responded to that. I don’t see why he shouldn’t be seen as sympathetic. The world isn’t black and white, people aren’t good or evil. Someone can do hideous things and yet can be empathised with because of their emotions/another area of their life.

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 11:48

My point is that there is a time and a place to get off on sexualised, violent gore movies, if that’s your thing.

However, I would argue, that while there are living relatives affected, and it is supposed to represent a true crime, then it is not the time and place to get off on torture porn, or have your desire for ‘the senseless to make sense’ satisfied by a falsified back story.

BMW6 · 21/04/2023 11:48

Having pondered mire on this I don't even watch these to be "entertained".

For me it's the same with programmes like Life on Earth or any wildlife programme. Invariably some poor creature will be eaten by another, or will starve for lack of prey.

Not "entertaining" at all, but Real, often interesting and always educational.

MisanthropistToTheCore · 21/04/2023 11:48

LowFlyingDucks · 21/04/2023 11:48

My point is that there is a time and a place to get off on sexualised, violent gore movies, if that’s your thing.

However, I would argue, that while there are living relatives affected, and it is supposed to represent a true crime, then it is not the time and place to get off on torture porn, or have your desire for ‘the senseless to make sense’ satisfied by a falsified back story.

And that’s your opinion. Great.

BMW6 · 21/04/2023 11:48

More not mire!

Toddlerteaplease · 21/04/2023 11:50

I find true crime documentaries interesting from a factual pint of view. But I get what you mean. I felt a bit uncomfortable with the Hunt for Raul moat. Particularly the bit with people making him out to be a hero. It just didn't sit right.

anonymous98 · 21/04/2023 11:51

YANBU My (thankfully ex) boyfriend used to talk about how 'fascinating' the Ted Bundy murders were. It used to give me the creeps and I had to remind him that Bundy's victims were real young women, with bereaved families/friends/partners etc. It's not entertaining, it's sad.

I also think a lot of true crime is just paranoia fuel. Yes, these cases are horrible but the chances of being targeted by a serial killers are very, very low.