To think we are becoming a much poorer country?

[Felixss]

I keep seeing on threads increase taxes on the rich , increase salaries, increase nhs spending and increase benefits. People are acting like we are still hugely wealthy and everyone wants to come over. Poland is predicted to overtake us economically. I can earn twice my salary abroad and I'm thinking of leaving. Where is the money going to come from with a shrinking work force and low investment in new technology? AIBU to think the UK is hugely declining ?

NB: others have said this boy it bears repeating: the average Polish family will be better off by the end of the decade if trends continue. Not that Poland will be better off, even in terms of GDP per capita.

Poland is not "overtaking" the UK.

The issue is that the UK has a larger than usual number of very rich people, meaning wealth is more evenly distributed in Poland.

The other issue is that Europe as a whole isn't doing that well. Someone said upthread that they could earn twice as much elsewhere. Maybe- but people who leave / left the UK to earn twice as much are, IME more likely to be going somewhere like North America / the Gulf / Australia etc. Not Europe.

Wealth hoarding?

What the what now?

User!

We are very wealthy by starting our own business!

What have you done?

Here's another thing that would skew the stats in favour of Poland: I expect there are far, far, far, far, far fewer single-parent families in Poland. Single-parent families are more likely to be hard up and have to rely on state assistance (which in the UK has reduced.)

Definitely if this had happened 7 years ago we would be planning to move abroad !

The roich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, helped out by a Tory government (looking out for themselves, their donors and their mates) and an "I'm alright, Jack" mentality among their voters.

We definitely are. The government are in position to make themselves and their friends rich. I came across this article in The Guardian recently and even though it’s a couple of years old it’s hugely relevant.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/25/in-britain-the-rich-are-richer-but-the-poor-far-poorer-than-in-europe

I think it's the realisation that unless you have assets, you are poor in the U.K. That has always been true but rising inflation, stagnant wages and crumbling public services really expose this.

Assets, property or whatever, mean that people don't feel it. They don't even see it. If you are well off then you don't see it. If you are retired and not using public services, you don't see it. Instead you moan about pot holes. It's literally all that is visible.

Japan is in a bit of a mess of its own.

Why would immigrants come to the UK???? For the reasons they always have: wealth, the English language, much less corrupt than their place of origin, opportunity.

In the last hundred years the UK has gone from being a world superpower to something of a has-been, but I really doubt that the average immigrant is thinking "Oh! I'll not go to the UK. They're not famous any more!"

Feels like the UK is becoming a 2nd world country or whatever the PC term
is. Sinking ship.

The guardian hugely relevant?

Sorry just belly laughing

@ladykale

*Maybe people already pay 45%+ once you take into account NI and other deductions it's close to 50%.

Where's the incentive to work if you just keep increasing tax; highly suspect that public services will not catch up as quickly if at all*

I live in the Netherlands and we pay 52% income tax. The ambulance arrives within 10 minutes, I can see the GP the same day and I needed an eye appointment in the hospital and could see someone the same week.

We also have a housing problem, not enough are built and the average family home now costs 360k gbp. (Average house in England is 290k gbp according to www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-house-price-index-for-january-2023)

If you want better services, you need to pay for them.

The Guardian is always moaning about something. Right now it's the UK's poor growth rate. But last year when it was good? Nothing.

A Conservative government bringing in a general anti-avoidance tax law? Nothing in the Guardian.

Recent changes to stop debt collection agencies behaving like sharks? Unreported.

The Guardian simply doesn't report what doesn't suit its agenda. Not that it's any worse than any other paper on that respect but it, and its readers think it's better.

We're DOOMED I tell ye. DOOMED 😂😂

FFS such dramatics! Save yourselves and feck off to an El Dorado elsewhere for the love of God.

So tedious.

People need to work. Benefits shouldn't pay.

I came to London to study. I fell in love with my British DH and we decided to settle in London because he had family here (free place to stay while we saved up to buy) and as a international couple, we wanted a place where we could get spouse visas easily. UK visa rules are at least pretty easy to fulfil if you meet the requirements. my home country is singapore and the requirements for a lot of visas seem fairly opaque (40% of the country are foreigners so evidently a lot of people get in but there is no certainty). Also in order for us to buy government housing in Singapore (the only choice for a first time buyer in singapore without a million pound budget), DH had to be a permanent resident. On the other hand, we bought in London before I even got indefinite leave to remain and for far less than a private apartment in Singapore. So for me, I chose to live in the UK not because it is an amazing country to live in from a quality of life perspective (though I have grown fond of the city and the people); but because it met my requirements at that time and now I have become fairly comfortable here. I am not sure if this would change but for now my quality of life is too comfortable for me to contemplate the upheaval of leaving even though i know we probably would earn more elsewhere. Every developed country seems to have a housing crisis too, as well as problems with high rents and that always affects new immigrants more than established locals.

I work with many professionals from India. The main reason why they chose UK was because they wanted to go to an English speaking country and the visa requirements in the UK were relatively easier to meet than Australia or the USA (for them). The main plan seems to be earn a good income, send money back to family in India, educate children (if they have any) in local schools and retire in India (they own land and a self built house in India by that time). Therefore, they don't mind as much if their lives are less comfortable than locals because there is a long term benefit- for now £ converts well into rupees.

Therefore, it is not useful to judge the desirability of a country based on the decisions of immigrants. Immigrants don't choose a country based on how rich it is. there are also practical realities that limit this and they don't choose a country based on how comfortable their lives would be. Furthermore the main benefit they enjoy from being in the uk do not apply to any local Brits, most working class British people would not be able to relocate to a cheaper country and buy lots of land lol... In any case, many foreigners I know do regret choosing the UK but its all water under the bridge now

@socialmedia23 Thanks - that was in interesting post, and immigrants' reasons are complex. Your point about Indian professionals is interesting. I'm in NZ and hadn't noticed anything similar but I think we probably get a different kind of immigrant.

I note your comments about US / Australia too. In simple money / opportunity terms I think the UK probably is slipping behind them, and most other English speaking countries (other than NZ!)

But it seems to me that the point I'm addressing (ie, people will continue to want to immigrate to the UK at least for the foreseeable future definitely stands. If they're moving to the UK the country is - for whatever reasons - desirable to them.

Mass immigration to just about all developed countries other than Japan will, I think, be with us for a good while yet.

I agree the UK is getting poorer and we would be arrogant not to acknowledge this. However any poster who decides moving to the US is the solution needs their head examined. The volume of random shootings just this week puts me off ever visiting the US again let alone living there.

The issue is Brexit (which we can't do much about now) and the Super Rich. The really wealthy. The billionaires.

Don't let the government or anyone else fool you. This is not about the pensioners, or the people earning £85 or £100k.

It's the people who keep getting richer during the pandemic while others were losing their jobs and their businesses, and while the poor keep getting poorer.

That didn't post properly....

The issue is Brexit (which we can't do much about now) and the Super Rich. The really wealthy. The billionaires.

Don't let the government or anyone else fool you. This is not about the pensioners, or the people earning £85 or £100k.

It's the people who keep getting richer during the pandemic while others were losing their jobs and their businesses, and while the poor keep getting poorer.

I know this isn't aimed at me but let's say I had worked as a care worker all my life, would that mean I deserved to live in poverty?

I agree with you but then Americans may think that we have a stabbing crisis in london too based on the media reports we read. I live in london and i do not fear stabbings (it is very specific to a certain demographic in certain areas). I remember i had a friend from huddersfield ask me about the 'high crime 'in London and my response was that i wasn't sure about that, i feel quite safe in my area!

Many people may think that if they live in a posh suburb, in a gated community and send their kids to private school on the new fat american salaries, they would be somehow insulated.

GFC.

The UK struggled economically for a decade before Brexit.

The GFC was a punch in the UK's solar plexus and it's never discussed.

I have a Brexit theory that one of the reasons that certain voters and politicians supported Brexit was that they were fed up with the UK being a relatively well off country having to contribute more to the EU than it got back in grants compared to say Bulgaria that got back more than it contributed.

Now by deliberately making the UK poorer through Brexit when the UK does eventually rejoin the EU in say 10 or 20 years it will join as a relatively poorer country and therefore get back more than it contributes.

Genius really....

I have an elderly relative who, amongst other reason, said they voted leave because 'young people have it too easy these days'. So maybe you're right.