To think we are becoming a much poorer country?

[Felixss]

I keep seeing on threads increase taxes on the rich , increase salaries, increase nhs spending and increase benefits. People are acting like we are still hugely wealthy and everyone wants to come over. Poland is predicted to overtake us economically. I can earn twice my salary abroad and I'm thinking of leaving. Where is the money going to come from with a shrinking work force and low investment in new technology? AIBU to think the UK is hugely declining ?

Working age people have less money because they have to subsidise the old, the dependent, the sick, and the wealthy.

The first three form the basis of our social contract. If you’re not happy with it other countries with little or no welfare state are available.

We are the 6th largest economy by GDP, but 30th in the list when you include buying power of citizens.

@Blossomtoes

"Working age people have less money because they have to subsidise the old, the dependent, the sick, and the wealthy."

The first three form the basis of our social contract. If you’re not happy with it other countries with little or no welfare state are available.

++++

Your point ignores the generational contract that each generation strives to place the subsequent generation in a better position than they themselves started in. As per the Ancient Greek proverb: “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.”

The issue today is that the majority of Government spending is on a free NHS and public sector and state pension paid for by the current workers in taxation when those same benefits are highly unlikely to be available to them when they retire - for example the increases in state pension age.

Regarding the economy, Brexit which was more heavily supported by older rather than younger generations penalises those of working age through lower economic growth than those that are retired and on guaranteed pensions.

Similarly the Covid measures in order to protect the older generations most at risk caused an incredible amount of damage to predominantly the younger generation through loss of education, the economy and an increase in Government debt to £2.5 trillion which will be paid for by both the the youngest generations and those still to be born. All when statistically the younger you were the lower was the risk from Covid.

These are just a few examples and for a more detailed explanation I would strongly recommend that you read:

"The Pinch: How the Baby Boomers Took Their Children's Future - And Why They Should Give it Back by David Willets.

But it is for these reasons that the Boomer Generation is viewed as selfish by both younger generations and by future history.

She is largely ignorant about the facts and perfers silly platitudes over objective facts.

Thats why I am not optmistic about the future of the UK.

People like her will continue to deny the problems of an ageing society and not enough tax being paid in by those same retired folks, and
the whole country will just get poorer and poorer. The when things really go pear-shaped (which they are about to over the next 24 months) they pretend to be surprised and claim its not their fault.

Its pointless. The culture of entitlement and dependence in the UK is off the scale.

You cannot have 54% of people as net tax benefit recipients and still have a functioning, healthy society with adequate public services.

It is mathematically impossible.

The older generation were much more likely to die of COVID also, so there's that...
I'm 62, so one of the 'selfish' ones. I'm not sure what you'd like us to do about it. It was an accident of birth.
I didn't go to University, have no children and have worked since I was 18 without a break. State Pension is still five years away. I'm not at all convinced I've taken out more than I've put in, or ever will. I don't know anyone my age who's not still working.

Maybe you could talk to me @TheThinkingGoblin? It’s extremely rude to insult someone by talking about them like that.

There has never been a generational contract that each generation strives to place the subsequent generation in a better position than they themselves started in. There were a couple of generations post war where that happened but more by chance than intent.

Clearly there is a temporary problem for society as the boomer generation moves into old age, in 20 or so years it will largely be over as they die. At that point there will be a flood of money into the economy as houses are liquidated and inheritances are spent. There will, of course, continue to be inequality with the heirs of more affluent boomers becoming those who are reviled. Additionally, pensioners continue to pay tax, those bloated pensions are subject to the same taxes as earnings.

If pensions and the NHS survive the swell of demand placed on them by the boomer generation, future generations need have little fear as there obviously be far less demand on them from a smaller population.

See, this is the problem.

Its your "feelings" over "facts".

The "I am not convinced" spiel is just that....a feeling.

The FACT is that you generation will take out approximately £400k more in benefits (state pension, healthcare, social care) than they ever paid in over their lifetimes (£1.2m vs £800k). And this will be to the detriment of the millenials who will pay in £300k more than they will be able to take out (£500k vs £800k).

https://www.economist.com/britain/2023/01/05/britons-in-their-thirties-are-stuck-in-a-dark-age

Again, these are the numbers. Stop trying to convince yourself this is not on your generation when it clearly is.

Your generational cohort is one of the drivers of why the UK is getting poorer.

Brexit was the final nail in the coffin. Now its managed decline for the entire country.

Those are the numbers in that article, yes. However it omits to attribute a source so the reader has absolutely no idea if they’re correct.

I see it also cites David Willetts’ 14 year old book which was considered an unreliable witness at the time of publication.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/feb/07/the-pinch-david-willetts

But as I said, it's none of my doing. I can't change the time of my birth Its a lucky accident. None of us can, so the hostility is misplaced.
You're entitled to be bitter but maybe direct it at the people in charge?

Brexit can, should, and perhaps will, be something which enables the UK to cut the size of Govt whilst the rest of the EU falls apart.

For the rest you are right. On benefits, selfish wasn’t the reason. Boomers were a big generation and could afford to be generous to those older than themselves. This raised their expectations. Now we can’t afford it anymore but can’t reduce benefits for those who planned their lives in reliance on state benefits and no longer have the opportunity to fix that.

Lockdown behaviour was due to Govt propaganda. I still don’t know why.

Far more people than that pay tax. 34 million people pay income tax out of a population of 67 million which includes children. Take 14 million children away and over 60% of the population pays income tax.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/income-tax-liabilities-statistics-tax-year-2019-to-2020-to-tax-year-2022-to-2023/summary-statistics#:~:text=there%20are%20a%20projected%2027.8,basic%20rate%20Income%20Tax%20payers.

It’s the waste of taxes that is the real crime. Billions wasted in the NHS, it’s been part privatised by stealth already - outsourced catering / security and parking creaming off resources, billions wasted by local Councils. Mine has just spunked £10million on a car park that nobody will use because the Town centre is a dead zone, soon to become even more dead when Wilkos disappears.

nonheme The problem is not that people are ‘choosing not to work’. It’s that wages are too low. The majority of people in receipt of state benefits are already in work. This is one of the many ‘through the looking glass’ things about the UK. Universal credit, topping up wages so that employers don’t have to, and incentivising a low wage, low skill economy.

I think the issue of wages stagnating is very real. A lot of people do pay income tax, but not at a high enough rate to maintain public services.

It's only the top 10 per cent of earners who are actually contributing net to the public purse. Paying tax is not the same as contributing, and that's why the UK has real problems stored up.

I don't think the Treasury wants to face the fact that income tax needs to go up (if you aren't interested in asset or windfall taxes) on basic rate taxpayers.

The UK's working population is older, sicker, and contributing much less than 30 or 20 years ago. And we have just removed ourselves from a younger, easily available source of immigration in the EU. We need younger and literally fitter people to come and work here.

Ooh a stealth Brexit thread. Haven’t seen one of those in a while.

This is an excellent point, @studentgrant

Also, our wealth is London-centred to an alarming degree. Today in The Observer Will Hutton quoted some research recently reported in The Financial Times. If you strip out the wealth from the largest cities of Germany, the Netherlands, the USA and the UK, the rest of the UK is poorer than the others and is in fact poorer than Mississippi, the poorest American state.

PS The unit of measurement is GDP/population

You can’t tax people on money they haven’t got. Maybe if we put some pressure on employers to pay decent wages more people would be taxpayers.

The top 1% of income earners currently pay 28% of all income tax and the top 50% of income earners pay 90% of all income taxes.

fullfact.org/economy/do-top-1-earners-pay-28-tax-burden

Those figures are five years out of date.