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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that a surrogate mother...

682 replies

BackDownSouth · 18/04/2023 03:31

Is the biological mother of a surrogate baby that she delivers, even in cases where another egg was used? One thing I hate hearing in the surrogacy debate by pro-surrogacy folks (who like to minimise the connection between mother and child and the effect that separation at birth can have on both) is “the surrogate has no biological relation to the baby” in cases where an egg other than the surrogate’s own were used. Of course she has a biological connection to the baby. She doesn’t have a GENETIC link to the baby - no. But biological? She has about as much of a biological connection with it as she would her own genetic child. The baby is quite literally made of her. The genetic material of the egg may predetermine baby’s genetic make-up to match that of the intended mother’s egg but that is such a shallow link compared to the nurturing happening during the pregnancy. It's the surrogate mother’s body building and nurturing that child. The mother’s body will likely forever retain snippets of the child’s DNA - particularly traces of Y chromosome if she carries a boy. Everything the mother does or eats or feels will influence that child. The baby knows her smell and voice and as soon as they are born they seek her, and they will feel stress at being placed into a stranger’s arms rather than mum’s immediately after birth. It’s completely ridiculous to say there is no biological connection between surrogate and baby. What’s more of a connection, really, to a newborn baby who has no concept of themselves other than the birth mother who is all they have ever known? Is the baby bothered about a mother who makes up half of their DNA but who has been on the other side of the world since their conception and is going to lay claim to them through a financial transaction? Or is the baby instead going to crave the presence of the woman who has grown and nurtured them? The surrogate is mum and the baby is going to need her post-birth no matter how much people want to ignore that.

People like to say “DNA is nothing” in the context of the love between step-parents and their stepchildren, adoptive children etc, and that’s rightly so. A genetic link isn’t what makes a family. But in the case of surrogacies, this is all completely thrown out of the window and the idea of a surrogate mother bonding with her baby (because it is her baby…) is inconceivable because she ‘isn’t even related to them’ despite literally creating and birthing the child.

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 09:05

herlightmaterials · 18/04/2023 08:58

That is unbelievably offensive. Babies are not rescue puppies and adoption is not something the average person, who would make an adequate parent, can or should do, with the best will in the world, because it is extremely challenging.

Do you understand what NewYear was saying though? It relates to having a puppy 'created' for a person's own needs. That is the analogy and whether you agree or not, that is the comparison Newyear is making.

Do you believe that a child should be 'created' for people who cannot carry that child themselves for whatever reason? This creation is for the sole purpose of fulfilling an adult human's needs and I have yet to see any argument for it to be adequately described in any other way. If you have an argument that doesn't eventually come down to fulfilling an adult human's needs, please do post it.

Whiskeypowers · 18/04/2023 09:09

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 09:05

Do you understand what NewYear was saying though? It relates to having a puppy 'created' for a person's own needs. That is the analogy and whether you agree or not, that is the comparison Newyear is making.

Do you believe that a child should be 'created' for people who cannot carry that child themselves for whatever reason? This creation is for the sole purpose of fulfilling an adult human's needs and I have yet to see any argument for it to be adequately described in any other way. If you have an argument that doesn't eventually come down to fulfilling an adult human's needs, please do post it.

Spot on
surrogacy is always entirely about fulfilling an adult human’s needs.
it is the epitome of self serving and gratification.

lifeturnsonadime · 18/04/2023 09:11

Endlesssummer2022 · 18/04/2023 09:04

And now I have my answer as there appears to be an almost timed response to my post about the American hard right with several similarly written ‘LOL’ type discrediting posts written at the same time.

I recall the last thread on surrogacy even had racist posts which had to be deleted by MN.
I’m sick of think tanks using MN talk as a way of driving wedge issues. And no doubt there will be a glut of ‘LOL conspiracy theorist’ posts to follow.

Well it is funny, it was me who posted LOL.

Women's rights are not a right wing position.

A ridiculous suggestion deserves that kind of response. It is interesting that that was the only thing you picked up on my thread, rather than the fact that surrogacy formed a large part of my Medical Ethics module at the University of Sussex (not exactly known for being a right wing establishment) in the 1990s.

Women who believe that surrogacy has ethical issues are not all far right, no matter how much you say so to try to close down conversations.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 09:12

Endlesssummer2022 · 18/04/2023 09:04

And now I have my answer as there appears to be an almost timed response to my post about the American hard right with several similarly written ‘LOL’ type discrediting posts written at the same time.

I recall the last thread on surrogacy even had racist posts which had to be deleted by MN.
I’m sick of think tanks using MN talk as a way of driving wedge issues. And no doubt there will be a glut of ‘LOL conspiracy theorist’ posts to follow.

No. You don't have any answer.

You have people pointing out that you are using a tropish and false point that has now been used by many across different issues. It is fuckwittery that is being used by others, it may not be your intention but it has been used with regular monotony, to silence feminists.

Usually on an issue that is universally held by many groups for different reasons. The suggestion that a group who also disagrees with surrogacy but is also not necessarily strong on other feminist issues is somehow behind women's opinions on this is really fuckwittery.

There are no ' religious think tanks' using MN for surrogacy feedback or manipulation. MN has a very strong feminist community and that is what you are seeing in action here.

Wishona · 18/04/2023 09:12

I know of a couple who had a baby through surrogacy. That baby is now a high achieving adult who has sought a relationship with her gestational carrier as well as her mother.

Carrying a baby is significant.

I found the surrogacy documentary on last year horrific, each of the mothers seemed to be hurting in some way. I know in terms of consent you have to accept that people have a right to make a choice, even if unwise. However, I couldn’t shake the feeling that they were exploited, even when they seemed willing.

I had zero issues in pregnancy or birth. Literally as easy as it can be, it’s still absolutely brutal and risky and has an impact on your body. I just can’t imagine expecting or even asking another women to carry that risk and those effects for me.

In terms of the baby, yes I do think this gives them a difficult early history. What the long term impacts will be, if any, may emerge.
But as I started my thoughts, the surrogate baby I knew, has wanted that connection with her carrier.

Blossomtoes · 18/04/2023 09:13

Whiskeypowers · 18/04/2023 09:09

Spot on
surrogacy is always entirely about fulfilling an adult human’s needs.
it is the epitome of self serving and gratification.

Having children is always entirely about fulfilling adult humans’ needs. It’s inherently selfish however it’s achieved.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 18/04/2023 09:14

lifeturnsonadime · 18/04/2023 09:11

Well it is funny, it was me who posted LOL.

Women's rights are not a right wing position.

A ridiculous suggestion deserves that kind of response. It is interesting that that was the only thing you picked up on my thread, rather than the fact that surrogacy formed a large part of my Medical Ethics module at the University of Sussex (not exactly known for being a right wing establishment) in the 1990s.

Women who believe that surrogacy has ethical issues are not all far right, no matter how much you say so to try to close down conversations.

This ^

probably the best-known surrogacy critic in the U.K. is the left wing, lesbian, feminist Julie Bindel.

https://thecritic.co.uk/end-womb-trafficking/

End womb trafficking | Julie Bindel | The Critic Magazine

“End womb trafficking” is the fifteenth article in Julie Bindel’s online column for The Critic, “The feminist fix”, which explores feminism’s answer to today’s challenges. The fourteenth article…

https://thecritic.co.uk/end-womb-trafficking/

EveryWitchWaybutLoose · 18/04/2023 09:15

For some of us it is our only chance of being parents through no fault of our own.

Frankly, tough. A lot of us have not had the opportunity to be parents "through no fault of our own." But we don't treat another woman's body as merely a vessel for our self-centred and entitled wants.

Sausagerolex · 18/04/2023 09:16

EmmaGrundyForPM · 18/04/2023 04:02

It's not a goady thread, it's a fair comment about surrogacy. This board is for discussion and debate, if you want to put forward an alternative case for surrogacy, that's fine, but don't just insult the OP. Wanting a baby is not a reason to allow surrogacy. There's lots of things in life I want but can't have.

Surrogacy is basically human trafficking and, in my opinion, should be made illegal. Babies are not commodities.

THIS

Its not goody to express our thoughts on surrogacy. Your wants are not what is being discussed here.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 09:18

Blossomtoes · 18/04/2023 09:13

Having children is always entirely about fulfilling adult humans’ needs. It’s inherently selfish however it’s achieved.

Some infants are not conceived deliberately at all.

Are you attempting to minimise the exploitative nature of surrogacy, the extreme edge of human fertility with all its ethical issues, through using 'having a child is entirely about fulfilling adult human's needs' as an argument? This is a polarisation tactic. An 'all or nothing' tactic.

There is a huge difference between even having assisted conception carrying your own child and surrogacy.

Whiskeypowers · 18/04/2023 09:20

Blossomtoes · 18/04/2023 09:13

Having children is always entirely about fulfilling adult humans’ needs. It’s inherently selfish however it’s achieved.

Don’t be ridiculous.

my having children didn’t involve the exploitation of another woman’s life and womb to achieve this end.

Whiskeypowers · 18/04/2023 09:20

EveryWitchWaybutLoose · 18/04/2023 09:15

For some of us it is our only chance of being parents through no fault of our own.

Frankly, tough. A lot of us have not had the opportunity to be parents "through no fault of our own." But we don't treat another woman's body as merely a vessel for our self-centred and entitled wants.

👏🏻

AbsoluteYawns · 18/04/2023 09:20

justgettingthroughtheday · 18/04/2023 03:42

Go away with your goady threads.
For some of us it is our only chance of being parents through no fault of our own. Just because you were lucky enough to carry children doesn't make you judge of other people.

Having a baby is not a right I would want at the expense of another woman. You're showing just how selfish people can be.
Just because they can afford it.
I agree with PP it's basically wrong.

KettrickenSmiled · 18/04/2023 09:21

RosettaTheGardenFairy · 18/04/2023 03:49

Surrogacy isn't about the needs or best interests of the baby, it's about the adults. It's a selfish process driven purely by selfish needs. No surprise that those who engage seek to minimize the link between baby and surogate-mother as it also minimizes their selfishness. I can't imagine how awful it must be for the baby to be ripped away from the only human it knows so early on.

Having children full stop is about the adults, & is a selfish process driven by selfish needs.

Blossomtoes · 18/04/2023 09:22

Whiskeypowers · 18/04/2023 09:20

Don’t be ridiculous.

my having children didn’t involve the exploitation of another woman’s life and womb to achieve this end.

I didn’t say it did. But presumably the reason you had them was simply because you wanted them. As I said, it’s an inherently selfish act.

CoffeeBean5 · 18/04/2023 09:23

MissMaple82 · 18/04/2023 06:19

Andbwhy does nobody ever argue about donated eggs?? That's is acceptable it seems but when you throw a "vessel" into the mixture it them becomes problematic. Its bullshit!

@MissMaple82 I don’t agree with donor eggs either because young women barely out of their teens who are desperate for some money are taken advantage of. They are pumped full of hormones and their eggs are harvested. There’s also a risk to her future fertility too. It’s a truly gruelling process for pitiful money.

@BackDownSouth if the baby grows from your egg then you are the biological/genetic mother. If you birth a baby that’s not from your egg, then you are the birth mother (not the bio/genetic mother).

DedicatedFollowerOfFashion84 · 18/04/2023 09:23

The thing that most surrogacy advocates conveniently overlook is that just because the birthing mother may not be developing a bond with the baby in utero, doesn’t mean that the developing baby isn’t creating that bond. Their mothers heartbeat, voice, movements, those things are the only thing that baby has known when they enter the world… and they’re immediately separated from that. It absolutely does have an impact developmentally. But as PP have noted - the adults in the scenario put their own needs over any consideration for that.

mixedrecycling · 18/04/2023 09:24

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 08:47

I find the 'loves being pregnant' argument is highly exploitative too. It leaves a woman open to being exploited, but also highlights that there is 'need' within that woman that leaves others open to being exploited by her too in some situations.

Being a surrogate because you 'love being pregnant' is a problem in itself. If that woman died or was left permanently unable to care for her four children, how has that benefited that woman or that woman's four children. All because she 'loved being pregnant'.

That there is a point of exploitation.

You could say the same about someone donating a kidney.

The answer isn't to ban it completely, but to make sure it is heavily regulated with checks to make sure (as far as possible) anyone offering to donate/be a surrogate is an adult able to make an informed choice.

Pegfriedrice · 18/04/2023 09:25

I completely agree OP. It’s disturbing that it seems to be becoming more ‘normal’ too. And yet another thing we are seemingly supposed to just accept and brush under some sort of ‘be kind’ ignorance.

DedicatedFollowerOfFashion84 · 18/04/2023 09:25

KettrickenSmiled · 18/04/2023 09:21

Having children full stop is about the adults, & is a selfish process driven by selfish needs.

No… it’s about the biological primal instinct to procreate - something all living organisms have to secure a continuation of their gene line. It’s very rarely a conscious thing much as many people do plan their pregnancies etc, that desire is programmed at a cellular level.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 09:25

KettrickenSmiled · 18/04/2023 09:21

Having children full stop is about the adults, & is a selfish process driven by selfish needs.

Are you attempting to minimise the extreme consequences of surrogacy by using this polarised approach?

Because while what you say is true, having your own child, carrying it to term without exploiting any other person's reproductive capacity to do so, is hugely different to having a child created for you, using another woman's, or more than one woman's body to do so.

What level of exploitation are you happy to support?

Pashy · 18/04/2023 09:27

MissMaple82 · 18/04/2023 06:15

The bottom line is every single one of those arguing womens rights around surrogacy, wouldn't be against it, IF they couldn't conceive themselves, because their own desire will far outweigh any desire for women's rights, and women's bodies not being "purchased".

All I care about is the child in question, nobody ever considers them.

I couldn’t conceive.

I’m 100% against surrogacy. My desire for a child didn’t extend into exploiting other women.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 18/04/2023 09:27

Risking your own health for a child is a lot less selfish than risking another woman’s.

Surrogate mothers have died in childbirth leaving their existing children motherless.

Link to the go fund me in the screenshot is in this cnn article (not directly linked due to MNHQ rules on crowdfunders, but it’s an old one, I’m definitely not asking people to donate!)

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/01/20/us/surrogate-mom-dies-trnd/index.html

To think that a surrogate mother...
Whiskeypowers · 18/04/2023 09:27

Blossomtoes · 18/04/2023 09:22

I didn’t say it did. But presumably the reason you had them was simply because you wanted them. As I said, it’s an inherently selfish act.

It’s irrelevant whether they were wanted or not for the purposes of this discussion.

what I can tell you is that my becoming a mother would never involve renting another women’s body to procure a baby so in terms of a spectrum of selfishness it stopped before that point. I can also tell you that is not about that being something that is easy to write for me as a mother but more about the values and estimation I live my life particular in terms of society’s treatment of women.

mixedrecycling · 18/04/2023 09:27

DedicatedFollowerOfFashion84 · 18/04/2023 09:05

Nobody is saying it’s your fault… merely pointing out that separation from the birthing mother absolutely does impact the baby’s development. Gabor Mate and Bruce Perry have some fascinating information on that very topic. You may well still feel surrogacy is ok, but it’s short sighted, and wilfully ignorant to not acknowledge the impact on the baby.

It does have an impact, but so do many other factors. Every child grows up with adverse impacts, as well as protective factors.

Parents divorcing, for example, is a risk factor, but that doesn't mean the answer is to ban divorce.