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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that a surrogate mother...

682 replies

BackDownSouth · 18/04/2023 03:31

Is the biological mother of a surrogate baby that she delivers, even in cases where another egg was used? One thing I hate hearing in the surrogacy debate by pro-surrogacy folks (who like to minimise the connection between mother and child and the effect that separation at birth can have on both) is “the surrogate has no biological relation to the baby” in cases where an egg other than the surrogate’s own were used. Of course she has a biological connection to the baby. She doesn’t have a GENETIC link to the baby - no. But biological? She has about as much of a biological connection with it as she would her own genetic child. The baby is quite literally made of her. The genetic material of the egg may predetermine baby’s genetic make-up to match that of the intended mother’s egg but that is such a shallow link compared to the nurturing happening during the pregnancy. It's the surrogate mother’s body building and nurturing that child. The mother’s body will likely forever retain snippets of the child’s DNA - particularly traces of Y chromosome if she carries a boy. Everything the mother does or eats or feels will influence that child. The baby knows her smell and voice and as soon as they are born they seek her, and they will feel stress at being placed into a stranger’s arms rather than mum’s immediately after birth. It’s completely ridiculous to say there is no biological connection between surrogate and baby. What’s more of a connection, really, to a newborn baby who has no concept of themselves other than the birth mother who is all they have ever known? Is the baby bothered about a mother who makes up half of their DNA but who has been on the other side of the world since their conception and is going to lay claim to them through a financial transaction? Or is the baby instead going to crave the presence of the woman who has grown and nurtured them? The surrogate is mum and the baby is going to need her post-birth no matter how much people want to ignore that.

People like to say “DNA is nothing” in the context of the love between step-parents and their stepchildren, adoptive children etc, and that’s rightly so. A genetic link isn’t what makes a family. But in the case of surrogacies, this is all completely thrown out of the window and the idea of a surrogate mother bonding with her baby (because it is her baby…) is inconceivable because she ‘isn’t even related to them’ despite literally creating and birthing the child.

OP posts:
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Endlesssummer2022 · 18/04/2023 16:40

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:07

No, my friend was the surrogate and she offered to carry the baby for another woman who was very grateful to become a mother.

How is this a negative story? Child, mother and surrogate are now over 20 years on and all happy. The child is close with both the mother and the surrogate. Happy ending surely?

No it’s not a happy ending. They’re all secretly extremely unhappy and the 20 year old will have a break down any day now.

Notice nobody with opposing views is bothering to post anymore as they all get jumped on and attacked. You should quit while you’re ahead and instead use your time to prepare to be there for your friends who’re all clearly pretending to be unaffected and will fall apart shortly.

SadAsHell · 18/04/2023 16:41

Me*

RedToothBrush · 18/04/2023 16:43

SadAsHell · 18/04/2023 16:40

Brian Dowling sister recently was surrogate for him and his husband. They used a donor egg, not hers. She said she wanted to experience being pregnant, and wanted to help her brother and brother-in-law. She experienced pregnancy, they got their much wished for child, and a beautiful happy healthy baby is being raised in a happy healthy loving home. To be it is a positive story.

Holy Hell.

Really don't use Brian Dowling as a positive example after the way he's behaved!

Christ almighty!

RedToothBrush · 18/04/2023 16:46

I fancy being pregnant is an experience like one of those hot air balloon or fancy race car experiences.

All they all lived happily ever after.

Cos of course it's be advertised on Facebook if there was underlying trauma, resentment or identity crisis going on. We all know that too.

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:47

Endlesssummer2022 · 18/04/2023 16:40

No it’s not a happy ending. They’re all secretly extremely unhappy and the 20 year old will have a break down any day now.

Notice nobody with opposing views is bothering to post anymore as they all get jumped on and attacked. You should quit while you’re ahead and instead use your time to prepare to be there for your friends who’re all clearly pretending to be unaffected and will fall apart shortly.

Perhaps, but it seems unlikely that four people have kept up a facade of happiness for over 20 years

I think you are being overly negative and melodramatic, and a little slanderous by insulting the lives and emotional authenticity of four adults who you have never met.

Ashenputtel · 18/04/2023 16:48

Brian Dowling sister recently was surrogate for him and his husband. They used a donor egg, not hers.

I'd think very poorly of a man who could have chosen a low risk pregnancy for his sister but chose to make it high risk- why? So she would have less claim to the baby?

I mean, I do think it'd be wrong for her to birth a child with her own egg and give it away in the fourth trimester. When you are pregnant all the professions bang on about how mum (birthing mum) is so important at this time. Yet when surrogacy happens suddenly it is a chop and change situation, any adult will do.

But it's extra callous of him to add extra risk for his sister for no good reason.
Being gay doesn't mean you are exempt from having ethics.

User1990C · 18/04/2023 16:49

Ah, the close minded nature of Mumsnet. I've an adopted sibling whose biological mother was abusive. I'm sure the last twenty odd years pale in comparison to her "real" mother.

Surrogacy is a fine way for those unable to have children to become parents. Only the narrow minded martyr mums think otherwise.

Ashenputtel · 18/04/2023 16:50

Oh and being infertile and straight is also not a good reason for leaving ethics at the door.
Just because I know that homophobic right wing accusation is bubbling up.

Willywanderer · 18/04/2023 16:50

MissMaple82 · 18/04/2023 06:15

The bottom line is every single one of those arguing womens rights around surrogacy, wouldn't be against it, IF they couldn't conceive themselves, because their own desire will far outweigh any desire for women's rights, and women's bodies not being "purchased".

All I care about is the child in question, nobody ever considers them.

Your first paragraph is nonsense. I hate that this is wheeled out like those who want kids but can't have them are selfish, self absorbed, thick nutcases you will stop at nothing to get what they want.

Also 'nobody ever considers the child'. Well if you do, others must. You're not unique.

I've done IVF. It didn't work. I would never use a surrogate or donor eggs or sperm.

Endlesssummer2022 · 18/04/2023 16:50

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:47

Perhaps, but it seems unlikely that four people have kept up a facade of happiness for over 20 years

I think you are being overly negative and melodramatic, and a little slanderous by insulting the lives and emotional authenticity of four adults who you have never met.

Erm I was being sarcastic. I know it’s probably hard to clock who’s genuine and who’s taking the piss at this point as so many PPs are being so extreme in their anti-surrogacy. I’m sure your friends are genuine in their happiness.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:50

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:40

It’s tricky, because I think however I answer your questions, you are determined to see it as negative.

I fully agree with you that surrogacy in general is a very ethically fraught subject and there are - perhaps a majority - of situations where it is ethically wrong.

However, there are some situations where the outcome works well for all involved. Our dialogue began when I replied to your request for positive surrogacy stories as I know of one.

In answer to your question above, I personally believe ‘the line’ is when exploitation actually happens, ie when one party is being taken advantage of. In my example both the surrogate mother and the genetic mother had a positive experience - no money exchanged hands. There was no ‘exploitation’.

The child had a happy childhood and a close relationship with both surrogate and genetic parents and is a well adjusted adult. (Incidentally I know they would be appalled to read this thread) So I think there is a strong argument that they were not exploited either. I know that all parents were aware of a transition period following the birth as well.

To me this is a happy, positive outcome. Adult child pleased to have been born, surrogate and genetic mother happy with the process. Everyone close 20+ years on.

Agsin, I completely accept this might be the exception to the rule, but I don’t think any of us should be so quick to condemn EVERYONE involved, especially if we’ve not experienced the process first hand.

Do you understand that your friend exploited this child to give her an 'experience'?

What other situation would you be comfortable with a person commoditising a child for an 'experience'?

Humanbiology · 18/04/2023 16:51

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:00

Why?

To make them happy? To fulfill your need to be needed by them?

Because you have a ‘need’ to be pregnant and have chosen to commoditise a human being to fulfill that need?

If my daughter wanted a baby and couldn't I would help. Not for financial gain or to be wanted. I don't think my daughter's would want that anyway.

Jonei · 18/04/2023 16:52

User1990C · 18/04/2023 16:49

Ah, the close minded nature of Mumsnet. I've an adopted sibling whose biological mother was abusive. I'm sure the last twenty odd years pale in comparison to her "real" mother.

Surrogacy is a fine way for those unable to have children to become parents. Only the narrow minded martyr mums think otherwise.

Adoption due to child protection reasons is not the same as selling your baby.

Hardly a martyr to care about vulnerable women and the impact on those babies.

You seem pretty clueless tbh.

SmedsAndSmoos · 18/04/2023 16:52

ChienChatCheval · 18/04/2023 04:29

Being a parent isn’t a right. You’re not entitled to it. You shouldn’t be allowed to rent a woman and her womb because you want a baby. You post shows that it’s all about the wants of adults and nothing to do with the resulting baby.

I think using egg and sperm donors in any circumstances is wrong too.

It should all be banned imo.

Completely agree. At a gut level it makes me feel completely unnerved. All brought about by modern technology too. May as well let AI take over if we allow this sort of madness.

Blaueblumen · 18/04/2023 16:58

SadAsHell · 18/04/2023 16:40

Brian Dowling sister recently was surrogate for him and his husband. They used a donor egg, not hers. She said she wanted to experience being pregnant, and wanted to help her brother and brother-in-law. She experienced pregnancy, they got their much wished for child, and a beautiful happy healthy baby is being raised in a happy healthy loving home. To be it is a positive story.

The baby has no contact to her biological mum, the baby was removed from her birth mum after being born and the baby is raised by two men and has no mum at all Confused

How can that be positive for the baby?!

SadAsHell · 18/04/2023 16:59

Blaueblumen · 18/04/2023 16:58

The baby has no contact to her biological mum, the baby was removed from her birth mum after being born and the baby is raised by two men and has no mum at all Confused

How can that be positive for the baby?!

Please see where I mention a healthy, happy, loving home! 🙄

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:59

Humanbiology · 18/04/2023 16:51

If my daughter wanted a baby and couldn't I would help. Not for financial gain or to be wanted. I don't think my daughter's would want that anyway.

So, you would be a surrogate for your daughter's child because it would be make your child happy?

What else would you do that was highly invasive and could potentially cause you to have life limiting repercussions for your daughter, that was not life saving?

If you and your daughter had a falling out because she was making decisions that you felt were abusive, how would you deal with that? That is the child that you carried for 9 months and is your grandchild as well. Would you feel that you had some kind of higher responsibility to that child?

If your daughter decided at 20 weeks that they didn't want that healthy feotus anymore and that the child should be aborted? What would you do? How would you feel about your daughter after that?

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 17:01

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:50

Do you understand that your friend exploited this child to give her an 'experience'?

What other situation would you be comfortable with a person commoditising a child for an 'experience'?

Well, that is not how the child - now in their 20s - sees it. Whenever they discuss their origin it is with joy - their view is that it’s special to have the origin story they do.

You need to be careful about projecting your views so blindly on every situation. It is insulting to tell someone their existence is exploitative if everyone involved, including them, are happy.

Again, this is just one story, but I promise you it is a happy one. You asked for an example of a positive story: this is it.

I don’t think the surrogate would have gone out of their way to experience pregnancy if the particular situation hadn’t crossed their path. As I said, they heard a story of a couple (friends of friends) desperate to be parents and thought ‘I could help’

As I explained above, some people have a baseline human need to want to help others, and thank goodness they do.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 17:02

Endlesssummer2022 · 18/04/2023 16:50

Erm I was being sarcastic. I know it’s probably hard to clock who’s genuine and who’s taking the piss at this point as so many PPs are being so extreme in their anti-surrogacy. I’m sure your friends are genuine in their happiness.

What? By asking the challenging questions? Why do you not want people to be challenged?

Or do you believe that these cases do not happen?

Do you believe that female bodies and children should be commoditised and transacted?

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 17:03

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:59

So, you would be a surrogate for your daughter's child because it would be make your child happy?

What else would you do that was highly invasive and could potentially cause you to have life limiting repercussions for your daughter, that was not life saving?

If you and your daughter had a falling out because she was making decisions that you felt were abusive, how would you deal with that? That is the child that you carried for 9 months and is your grandchild as well. Would you feel that you had some kind of higher responsibility to that child?

If your daughter decided at 20 weeks that they didn't want that healthy feotus anymore and that the child should be aborted? What would you do? How would you feel about your daughter after that?

This reply doesn’t make any sense!

mixedrecycling · 18/04/2023 17:09

SadAsHell · 18/04/2023 14:36

So if I was asked to be surrogate for someone, and I fully agreed, in the full of my health both mentally and physically, how would that be exploration of me, a woman?

It's a waste of time - surrogacy = exploitation for posters on this thread. The idea that a woman MIGHT choose to do this as a consenting adult just explodes their minds and makes them incapable of further thought.

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 17:13

Endlesssummer2022 · 18/04/2023 16:50

Erm I was being sarcastic. I know it’s probably hard to clock who’s genuine and who’s taking the piss at this point as so many PPs are being so extreme in their anti-surrogacy. I’m sure your friends are genuine in their happiness.

Oops! Sorry! Just goes to show eh?

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 17:13

mixedrecycling · 18/04/2023 17:09

It's a waste of time - surrogacy = exploitation for posters on this thread. The idea that a woman MIGHT choose to do this as a consenting adult just explodes their minds and makes them incapable of further thought.

Well said.

Whiskeypowers · 18/04/2023 17:13

User1990C · 18/04/2023 16:49

Ah, the close minded nature of Mumsnet. I've an adopted sibling whose biological mother was abusive. I'm sure the last twenty odd years pale in comparison to her "real" mother.

Surrogacy is a fine way for those unable to have children to become parents. Only the narrow minded martyr mums think otherwise.

I cannot believe that adoption and surrogacy are being discussed in the same breath.
it really is clutching at straws.

and if you are a martyr you are dead so being a mother would be pretty difficult.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 17:14

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 17:01

Well, that is not how the child - now in their 20s - sees it. Whenever they discuss their origin it is with joy - their view is that it’s special to have the origin story they do.

You need to be careful about projecting your views so blindly on every situation. It is insulting to tell someone their existence is exploitative if everyone involved, including them, are happy.

Again, this is just one story, but I promise you it is a happy one. You asked for an example of a positive story: this is it.

I don’t think the surrogate would have gone out of their way to experience pregnancy if the particular situation hadn’t crossed their path. As I said, they heard a story of a couple (friends of friends) desperate to be parents and thought ‘I could help’

As I explained above, some people have a baseline human need to want to help others, and thank goodness they do.

"What other situation would you be comfortable with a person commoditising a child for an 'experience'?"

You have not answered the question actually.

It is theoretical for sure. But it goes to the ethics of the situation.

Is it ethical at all for any person to commoditise creating a human being for the 'experience' of it?

"some people have a baseline human need to want to help others, and thank goodness they do."

So, do you also believe it is ethical also then for a woman and a developing human to be commoditised because a woman 'wants to help others'? And you don't see this as exploitative at all?

"You need to be careful about projecting your views so blindly on every situation. It is insulting to tell someone their existence is exploitative if everyone involved, including them, are happy."

I am saying that your friend exploited the situation, with people she did not even know, and the outcome for an 'experience'. I am not getting emotionally involved here, I am pointing out that this is a form of exploitation that resulted in the deliberate creation of a human being to order. If you and they find that insulting, that is your business.

I am merely considering the ethics of the situation. I am pointing out with bluntness that there are issues with 'altruistic' exploitation of any type of a woman's body in this way. And with the exploitation of commoditising a child.

This is really not an unusual stance.

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