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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that a surrogate mother...

682 replies

BackDownSouth · 18/04/2023 03:31

Is the biological mother of a surrogate baby that she delivers, even in cases where another egg was used? One thing I hate hearing in the surrogacy debate by pro-surrogacy folks (who like to minimise the connection between mother and child and the effect that separation at birth can have on both) is “the surrogate has no biological relation to the baby” in cases where an egg other than the surrogate’s own were used. Of course she has a biological connection to the baby. She doesn’t have a GENETIC link to the baby - no. But biological? She has about as much of a biological connection with it as she would her own genetic child. The baby is quite literally made of her. The genetic material of the egg may predetermine baby’s genetic make-up to match that of the intended mother’s egg but that is such a shallow link compared to the nurturing happening during the pregnancy. It's the surrogate mother’s body building and nurturing that child. The mother’s body will likely forever retain snippets of the child’s DNA - particularly traces of Y chromosome if she carries a boy. Everything the mother does or eats or feels will influence that child. The baby knows her smell and voice and as soon as they are born they seek her, and they will feel stress at being placed into a stranger’s arms rather than mum’s immediately after birth. It’s completely ridiculous to say there is no biological connection between surrogate and baby. What’s more of a connection, really, to a newborn baby who has no concept of themselves other than the birth mother who is all they have ever known? Is the baby bothered about a mother who makes up half of their DNA but who has been on the other side of the world since their conception and is going to lay claim to them through a financial transaction? Or is the baby instead going to crave the presence of the woman who has grown and nurtured them? The surrogate is mum and the baby is going to need her post-birth no matter how much people want to ignore that.

People like to say “DNA is nothing” in the context of the love between step-parents and their stepchildren, adoptive children etc, and that’s rightly so. A genetic link isn’t what makes a family. But in the case of surrogacies, this is all completely thrown out of the window and the idea of a surrogate mother bonding with her baby (because it is her baby…) is inconceivable because she ‘isn’t even related to them’ despite literally creating and birthing the child.

OP posts:
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Humanbiology · 18/04/2023 16:00

Especially since you could just eat what you want anyway.

No not really it is the only time I had pleasure when eating was when I was pregnant.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:00

Humanbiology · 18/04/2023 15:57

I would do it for free for the people close to me.

Why?

To make them happy? To fulfill your need to be needed by them?

Because you have a ‘need’ to be pregnant and have chosen to commoditise a human being to fulfill that need?

piratypotato · 18/04/2023 16:01

Humanbiology · 18/04/2023 15:57

I would do it for free for the people close to me.

Would you? Wonder what you'd be getting out of it then. Some surrogates do it for the attention and gratitude, its a psychological issue.
Worrying.

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:02

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 15:31

Tell us about the positive stories.

Can you explain what the motivation of the surrogate was? Why did they choose to significantly risk their health, their life and their future fertility?

Are you going to say they did it because they ‘love being pregnant’?

A close friend of mine chose to be a surrogate. No money was exchanged - she did it because she wanted to experience pregnancy, was healthy and able to become pregnant, but due to lots of reasons she didn’t want to be a parent. She knew someone who was desperate to have a child, but couldn’t. Their child is now an adult and while I’m sure there have been bumps, they are well adjusted and happy, as are all parents involved.

Im emphatically NOT arguing in favour of the commercial side of surrogacy and I don’t want to minimise the experience the new baby may or may not have.

I’m just trying to provide a bit of balance and demonstrate that there are positive stories of surrogacy.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:03

And if you had children already, are you very happy that you might die through this process or will be left unable to care for your own children doing so?

This has happened, I am happy to go and find the stories.

So to help out a loved one, you would put your own children’s future at risk?

Again, this comes back to the motivation of why you are doing it.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:04

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:02

A close friend of mine chose to be a surrogate. No money was exchanged - she did it because she wanted to experience pregnancy, was healthy and able to become pregnant, but due to lots of reasons she didn’t want to be a parent. She knew someone who was desperate to have a child, but couldn’t. Their child is now an adult and while I’m sure there have been bumps, they are well adjusted and happy, as are all parents involved.

Im emphatically NOT arguing in favour of the commercial side of surrogacy and I don’t want to minimise the experience the new baby may or may not have.

I’m just trying to provide a bit of balance and demonstrate that there are positive stories of surrogacy.

Why do you think that this is. ‘Positive’ story?

She commoditised another human being to have an experience?

Blaueblumen · 18/04/2023 16:05

I would do it for free for the people close to me.

Even if you knew that the baby will suffer from being removed from its birth mother, the place it's been bonding with for 9 months?

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:05

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:03

And if you had children already, are you very happy that you might die through this process or will be left unable to care for your own children doing so?

This has happened, I am happy to go and find the stories.

So to help out a loved one, you would put your own children’s future at risk?

Again, this comes back to the motivation of why you are doing it.

I think you’re being over dramatic in order to prove your point. Women do die in pregnancy, but if you’re talking about the more positive side of surrogacy, death or any permanent harm is incredibly rare.

agsin, I am fully aware this is perhaps not the case in some of the countries where the women are being exploited and I absolutely do not condone this, but there are women in situations where their personal risk is vanishingly small

Blaueblumen · 18/04/2023 16:07

she did it because she wanted to experience pregnancy,

Again, it's always about the parents' wishes and needs.

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:07

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:04

Why do you think that this is. ‘Positive’ story?

She commoditised another human being to have an experience?

No, my friend was the surrogate and she offered to carry the baby for another woman who was very grateful to become a mother.

How is this a negative story? Child, mother and surrogate are now over 20 years on and all happy. The child is close with both the mother and the surrogate. Happy ending surely?

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:09

Blaueblumen · 18/04/2023 16:07

she did it because she wanted to experience pregnancy,

Again, it's always about the parents' wishes and needs.

True, but where is the negative outcome in this particular situation? The child and all adults involved have a close relationship 20 years on. I don’t think there is too much inherent wrong in offering to carry a child for someone who can’t. It’s not for me personally, but I respect there are some situations where it works well.

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:11

piratypotato · 18/04/2023 16:01

Would you? Wonder what you'd be getting out of it then. Some surrogates do it for the attention and gratitude, its a psychological issue.
Worrying.

This is a very depressing line of questioning. Why should any of us do any good deeds? Because sometimes it is baseline human instinct to want to help out another human.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:11

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:05

I think you’re being over dramatic in order to prove your point. Women do die in pregnancy, but if you’re talking about the more positive side of surrogacy, death or any permanent harm is incredibly rare.

agsin, I am fully aware this is perhaps not the case in some of the countries where the women are being exploited and I absolutely do not condone this, but there are women in situations where their personal risk is vanishingly small

And the cases I know of were not in countries with poor health.

You wish to minimise the potential harm. Why?

KimberleyClark · 18/04/2023 16:13

A close friend of mine chose to be a surrogate. No money was exchanged - she did it because she wanted to experience pregnancy, was healthy and able to become pregnant, but due to lots of reasons she didn’t want to be a parent. She knew someone who was desperate to have a child, but couldn’t. Their child is now an adult and while I’m sure there have been bumps, they are well adjusted and happy, as are all parents involved.

Bloody hell. Imagine the responses if she’d posted in AIBU. “I want to experience pregnancy but don’t want to be a mum. WIBU to be a surrogate so I can get to experience pregnancy without being a mum?”

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:14

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:11

And the cases I know of were not in countries with poor health.

You wish to minimise the potential harm. Why?

because pregnancy is not something most people with no underlying issues and good health support go into thinking there is a high risk of serious harm and certainly not a high risk of death. I’m being factual, I’m not trying to minimise anything.

if all women thought the risk of death was high through pregnancy, I doubt many would choose to be pregnant for any reason, and certainly not once you had a child already.

Jonei · 18/04/2023 16:14

Humanbiology · 18/04/2023 16:00

Especially since you could just eat what you want anyway.

No not really it is the only time I had pleasure when eating was when I was pregnant.

You'd be a surrogate so that you could enjoy eating food? Really? 🤨

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:16

KimberleyClark · 18/04/2023 16:13

A close friend of mine chose to be a surrogate. No money was exchanged - she did it because she wanted to experience pregnancy, was healthy and able to become pregnant, but due to lots of reasons she didn’t want to be a parent. She knew someone who was desperate to have a child, but couldn’t. Their child is now an adult and while I’m sure there have been bumps, they are well adjusted and happy, as are all parents involved.

Bloody hell. Imagine the responses if she’d posted in AIBU. “I want to experience pregnancy but don’t want to be a mum. WIBU to be a surrogate so I can get to experience pregnancy without being a mum?”

That wasn’t how the conversation went, obviously.

she heard of someone looking for a surrogate and thought ‘I could do that’

her decision, not mine! But it wasn’t out of some perverse desire. Being pregnant appealed to her and she was able to help someone out.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:18

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:07

No, my friend was the surrogate and she offered to carry the baby for another woman who was very grateful to become a mother.

How is this a negative story? Child, mother and surrogate are now over 20 years on and all happy. The child is close with both the mother and the surrogate. Happy ending surely?

Because at what point does being pregnant for the ‘experience’ when you have no intention of raising that human you deliberately grew because a desirable outcome? And at what point does it become someone exploiting another woman or an unborn child.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:25

Become not ‘because’. Apologies

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:28

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:16

That wasn’t how the conversation went, obviously.

she heard of someone looking for a surrogate and thought ‘I could do that’

her decision, not mine! But it wasn’t out of some perverse desire. Being pregnant appealed to her and she was able to help someone out.

So, she didn’t even know the people.

She carried a child because she ‘wanted the experience’, without any ramifications. She exploited the human being she carried to give her an ‘experience’.

Still not seeing the positiveness in this situation. Glad you do.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:33

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:14

because pregnancy is not something most people with no underlying issues and good health support go into thinking there is a high risk of serious harm and certainly not a high risk of death. I’m being factual, I’m not trying to minimise anything.

if all women thought the risk of death was high through pregnancy, I doubt many would choose to be pregnant for any reason, and certainly not once you had a child already.

And I will repeat it again, in fact in a minute I will get the link about the increased risk of carrying a child that is not your egg.

These pregnancies are high risk.

Just like so many people then dismiss the risks of egg donation, because they don’t want to know that young very healthy women end up with strokes, organ failure, loss of fertility through donating eggs. Whether you are healthy or not, carrying a child that is not from your own eggs and conceived naturally is high risk.

You are not being ‘factual’. In fact, you seem to be spreading misinformation.

Why? why are you dismissing the higher risks with these pregnancies?

DiscoBeat · 18/04/2023 16:33

I totally agree. Surrogacy seems to be purely for the intended parents. I feel so sorry for the real mother and the baby.

blondiiiee · 18/04/2023 16:39

I remember reading a thread once, or a comment on a thread, that a surrogate mother ended up losing her womb in the traumatic birth she had. She was guilted into it by her family to be a surrogate for her sister.

Her sister went on to have more children by other surrogates and the woman herself, permanently scarred and her husband left her because of it all.

I don't believe in surrogacy and I think we should all accept the cards we've been dealt.

Also who to say that the surrogate is treating her pregnancy sacred too? I just think there are so many risks for all parties involved and it is exploitation.

ibis17 · 18/04/2023 16:40

Helleofabore · 18/04/2023 16:28

So, she didn’t even know the people.

She carried a child because she ‘wanted the experience’, without any ramifications. She exploited the human being she carried to give her an ‘experience’.

Still not seeing the positiveness in this situation. Glad you do.

It’s tricky, because I think however I answer your questions, you are determined to see it as negative.

I fully agree with you that surrogacy in general is a very ethically fraught subject and there are - perhaps a majority - of situations where it is ethically wrong.

However, there are some situations where the outcome works well for all involved. Our dialogue began when I replied to your request for positive surrogacy stories as I know of one.

In answer to your question above, I personally believe ‘the line’ is when exploitation actually happens, ie when one party is being taken advantage of. In my example both the surrogate mother and the genetic mother had a positive experience - no money exchanged hands. There was no ‘exploitation’.

The child had a happy childhood and a close relationship with both surrogate and genetic parents and is a well adjusted adult. (Incidentally I know they would be appalled to read this thread) So I think there is a strong argument that they were not exploited either. I know that all parents were aware of a transition period following the birth as well.

To me this is a happy, positive outcome. Adult child pleased to have been born, surrogate and genetic mother happy with the process. Everyone close 20+ years on.

Agsin, I completely accept this might be the exception to the rule, but I don’t think any of us should be so quick to condemn EVERYONE involved, especially if we’ve not experienced the process first hand.

SadAsHell · 18/04/2023 16:40

Brian Dowling sister recently was surrogate for him and his husband. They used a donor egg, not hers. She said she wanted to experience being pregnant, and wanted to help her brother and brother-in-law. She experienced pregnancy, they got their much wished for child, and a beautiful happy healthy baby is being raised in a happy healthy loving home. To be it is a positive story.

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