Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Why do people torment themselves over school places

259 replies

Schoolplacechoicemyth · 17/04/2023 19:36

Im in a local toddler/child social media group.

Every single year there are people on the group who apply wildly optimistically for 2 or 3 oversubscribed schools several miles away from their home, are given the unpopular school they live near and desperately ask how to appeal because they "really love oversubcribed school and absolutely want DC to go there".

They seem completely unprepared for how unlikely it was they'd get a place, baffled that their preference doesn't actually get them the place at the oversubscribed chool, spend weeks/months appealing for schools they have next to no chance of a space at, & complain repeatedly on the group about it. Often the school they live near is fine, its just not the fashionable choice this week.

The local council publish all the info. You can see, easily, how close you need to live to stand a decent chance at a place. All the admission criteria are available.

Why do people do this to themselves!? Do they really think their preference is a factor when applying to a routinely oversubscribed school living miles away? Its like there's some sense of entitlement to a place at the trendy/popular school. I just couldn't torture myself like this. One lady has spent weeks telling her DC they are going to popular school X with their nursery friends. She lives over 5 miles from it & it hasn't taken a non sibling from more than a mile away in over a decade and yet she's bewildered her DC didn't get a space.

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 17/04/2023 22:48

@00100001 "Ok. My house is equally distant from 2 schools."

To the metre?

00100001 · 17/04/2023 22:50

CurlewKate · 17/04/2023 22:40

"And what if you're equally distant between two schools?"
What-to the metre? How likely is that?

Not impossible.

Anyway, if it's by closest school and nothing else. Then do you not think that some schools would be over subscribed? And class sizes far too big?

What about where the nearest school isn't able to accommodate the child's needs?

What would you do about looked after children?

SpicedPumpkinLatte · 17/04/2023 22:58

00100001 · 17/04/2023 19:42

What system would work in your mind?

Show quote history

A lottery

00100001 · 17/04/2023 22:59

SpicedPumpkinLatte · 17/04/2023 22:58

A lottery

Show quote history

Ok, and what is a "win" and a "loss"?

If I lose this lottery...where are my kids going?

SpicedPumpkinLatte · 17/04/2023 23:02

2nd choice etc

00100001 · 17/04/2023 23:04

SpicedPumpkinLatte · 17/04/2023 23:02

2nd choice etc

I only put one school down...

CurlewKate · 17/04/2023 23:10

@00100001 considering that less than 50% of families put their local school first, I'm pretty sure that overcrowding won't be a significant issue. And the exactly equidistant thing just isn't going to happen. I accept that there would need to be provision for children with AEN if their needs can only be met at a particular school.

CurlewKate · 17/04/2023 23:12

If there's a lottery and you only put one school down, you get the first available school place when all other children whose parents weren't daft have been given places.

00100001 · 17/04/2023 23:15

CurlewKate · 17/04/2023 23:12

If there's a lottery and you only put one school down, you get the first available school place when all other children whose parents weren't daft have been given places.

Ok.

So, kinda what happens now then...

00100001 · 17/04/2023 23:15

CurlewKate · 17/04/2023 23:10

@00100001 considering that less than 50% of families put their local school first, I'm pretty sure that overcrowding won't be a significant issue. And the exactly equidistant thing just isn't going to happen. I accept that there would need to be provision for children with AEN if their needs can only be met at a particular school.

But some schools would be over capacity if the only criteria was "you go to the closest school".

00100001 · 17/04/2023 23:18

00100001 · 17/04/2023 23:15

But some schools would be over capacity if the only criteria was "you go to the closest school".

Show quote history

Especially if you're making exceptions for looked after/additional needs.

What about siblings? Do they get priority over others?

What does your closest school system do if you move schools? Kid 1 at school A and kid 2 and School B? Or as a sibling can they both go to the same closest school without any problems, ICS not an issue?

CurlewKate · 17/04/2023 23:25

"But some schools would be over capacity if the only criteria was "you go to the closest school". I don't know if there would be. As I said, less than 50% of parents put their nearest school first. I should, of course, have said "Closest school with spaces"

NoTouch · 17/04/2023 23:28

00100001 · 17/04/2023 23:15

But some schools would be over capacity if the only criteria was "you go to the closest school".

Show quote history

It wouldnt be the "closest school", it will be the "catchment school" and the catchment area will be defined by the LA based on expected number of children in that area and subject to change.

Catchment areas for ds's school changed twice in the last 12 years due to new housing.

Gingersay · 17/04/2023 23:36

It would work if everyone went to your catchment school which would normally be your closest.
Our local authority also provide free buses for any pupils whose home is more than 1 mile for primary and 2 miles for secondary from the catchment school. Not an issue in built up areas but our local high school has 4 mile catchment which takes in farms and outlying villages so no children have to travel any distance to school on their own.

CurlewKate · 17/04/2023 23:43

@Gingersay I'm talking about redefining the admissions procedure. So no catchment. Just the nearest school with spaces.

CecilyP · 17/04/2023 23:45

Not the person you asked, but I believe in Scotland you just automatically get your closest, there's no application. That's what it should be like.

No your catchment school is not necessarily your nearest school. Boundaries between catchments tend to be obvious things like main roads, rivers, canals and railway lines. Families do put in placement requests for their nearest school if it’s not their catchment school but they are not guaranteed a place. There is an application process and you apply to your catchment School between certain dates - otherwise how would they plan for expected numbers. If you put in a placement request for a school that is not particularly popular, you hear very quickly. Otherwise it can be a bit of a weight.

00100001 · 17/04/2023 23:45

NoTouch · 17/04/2023 23:28

It wouldnt be the "closest school", it will be the "catchment school" and the catchment area will be defined by the LA based on expected number of children in that area and subject to change.

Catchment areas for ds's school changed twice in the last 12 years due to new housing.

Show quote history

So, again, do siblings then have to go to different schools if catchment area changes between admission?

Gingersay · 17/04/2023 23:56

Outside of Glasgow/East Ren and Edinburgh yes the siblings would normally get a placement as its unusual for people to go outwith catchment so when they do its rare to get requests refused.

Womencanlift · 18/04/2023 00:53

00100001 · 17/04/2023 22:46

Ok. My house is equally distant from 2 schools.

Which one do I get?

Show quote history

The one that your LA has defined that you will go to based on your address. Doesn’t matter if you are to the metre the same distance to school B. If you really wanted school B then you would put in a placement request

I was educated in Scotland, now live in England and every year when this conversation comes around I am thankful for the Scottish system. Not only for the allocation of spaces model but also that our cut off for primary 1 is end of February so even the youngest in the year will be 4.5 when they start (and can still defer). So none of this July/August born angst that you hear so much of in England

All the primary schools in my town were fairly similar in terms of standards, same with the high schools with exception of 1 that got closed down not that long after I started high school and the pupils got distributed amongst the remaining schools. Only split was denominational/non-denominational

BashfulClam · 18/04/2023 00:58

00100001 · 17/04/2023 19:42

What system would work in your mind?

Show quote history

In Scotland you go to your nearest school that’s it.

DiscoBeat · 18/04/2023 01:01

If it's a better school and the right fit for their child then of course they're going to try to get a place. And appeal if they don't. As long as they're in the catchment area or meet other criteria of course.

Shamalamalama · 18/04/2023 07:12

But in England the catchment areas don't change unless there was something major that happened (like eg a new school being built). They are fixed boundaries.

The issue is that living in catchment is not sufficient to guarantee a place. Because often there are far more children living in a catchment than there are spaces. So it most commonly works on the criteria LAC> Sibs in catchment> Distance from school within catchment.

And generally schools do not or cannot flex to add a new classroom.

We are in catchment for two primary schools (there are other areas around here with same). Our DC are at a tiny desirable school that we only just got in to despite living about 250m from. They physically could not expand. Our youngest may not have got in on their admission year if it wasn't for their older sibling getting in on their admission year. Our other catchment school is improving but very different, three/four times bigger and less desirable.

The system is very stressful but I'm not sure what the solution would be for our area and many others like it?

Aslanplustwo · 18/04/2023 07:14

00100001 · 17/04/2023 20:37

So, where do Scottish/foreign schools magic up classrooms? Or do they squeeze them in? Or have rooms empty some years etc?

Show quote history

Where I live almost every primary school has had new classrooms built in the past year, and the secondary school is being completely re-built.

JassyRadlett · 18/04/2023 07:21

Shamalamalama · 18/04/2023 07:12

But in England the catchment areas don't change unless there was something major that happened (like eg a new school being built). They are fixed boundaries.

The issue is that living in catchment is not sufficient to guarantee a place. Because often there are far more children living in a catchment than there are spaces. So it most commonly works on the criteria LAC> Sibs in catchment> Distance from school within catchment.

And generally schools do not or cannot flex to add a new classroom.

We are in catchment for two primary schools (there are other areas around here with same). Our DC are at a tiny desirable school that we only just got in to despite living about 250m from. They physically could not expand. Our youngest may not have got in on their admission year if it wasn't for their older sibling getting in on their admission year. Our other catchment school is improving but very different, three/four times bigger and less desirable.

The system is very stressful but I'm not sure what the solution would be for our area and many others like it?

Lots of areas in England don't operate catchments at all.

00100001 · 18/04/2023 07:23

BashfulClam · 18/04/2023 00:58

In Scotland you go to your nearest school that’s it.

Show quote history

But that's not true. A PP said that some kids aren't at closest schools because of their primary cluster. And the catchment areas are set so there's one school in catchment, not necessary the closest school.

It would be more accurate to say, you go to your catchment school?