Money taken from account...now in an awkward situation.

[Pollytom]

I've AIBU for traffic.

A couple of months ago, I purchased some fitness classes at my local gym. An invoice was sent to my email and I paid for the classes with my instructor. After the sessions, another invoice was sent over (the instructor had incorrectly billed me) but I paid the invoice anyway and notified her of the error, which she just said she would take off next time. There was absolutely no indication at any point that I had signed up to any type of subscription. It was simply an invoice with the amount for the sessions and then the option to pay for the classes using my bank card. There was no contract, and I didn't sign anything that reflected I had entered into any type of agreement.

Anyway, after two block of sessions with her, I notified her that I wouldn't be continuing as I felt confident to do my own thing. No invoice arrived - but a large chuck of money left my account. I've reached out to her to query this, and her response is that she needs 14 days notice and I must continue with this block of sessions. She didn't tell me I needed to give her notice, and she didn't tell me at any point that it was a subscription I was entering into. I don't have a clue how this has happened tbh. Why send me invoices, and then suddenly no invoice but an automatic withdrawal.

I feel awkward now as I needed that money for DD's birthday and now it's gone and will have to continue with classes that aren't even needed.

This is not a Stripe issue. It's fraudulent behaviour by the trainer.

Posters saying 'Stripe is shocking' and variations thereof are completely missing the point.

The trainer has retained on file somehow (OP is not clear how) her bank details & automatically charged her.

The trainer is arguing that this was in the T&C but OP never received or accepted this.

It's is fraudulent practice by the trainer - not the payment method.

I pay by window cleaners in this way. It's cheaper for them processing payment as they were previously. I had to signup to agree to this; they send me a message 24 hours in advance letting me know payment will be taken. It happens on varying days & I can cancel it.

It's a useful tool for small businesses.

OP, you need to push her for these 'T&C' she allegedly gave you. I'm amazed she hasn't just refunded you by now. You also need to establish exactly how she got your details - she could not have obtained them from a previous online payment, they needed to be supplied to her.

OP, you need to push her for these 'T&C' she allegedly gave you. I'm amazed she hasn't just refunded you by now. You also need to establish exactly how she got your details - she could not have obtained them from a previous online payment, they needed to be supplied to her.

If you read the posts about Stripe more carefully - you’d have your answer as to how she retained OP’s details.

Just a quick update. Spoke to her about it...and will be getting a refund. Gave her some business advice for the future as it was v.v clear that she didn't have a clue what she was doing and she practically admitted that!

Glad to hear that you are getting your money back OP! Maybe as a one off you could chalk it up to naivety, but I'd never trust her again.

Some might call it naivety, others could call it fraud. She got off lightly.

Good job, OP. She’s lucky she tried this stunt on someone nice like you, and gets to learn a lesson without terrible consequences.

Good news Op.

Ha! "It's all very simple."

That wouldn't be simple for me. It's not how my brain works.

Thanks all! - It's been a very valuable lesson all round.

From the trainer's end, I think it's a big dose of naivety so will give her the benefit of the doubt. I did tell her that she's lucky it was me because somebody else could cause her a lot of bother. I also told her she needs to put a contract in place if she's going to place terms and conditions with her classes. She seemed like a rabbit in the headlights tbh, so hope she takes on board what i've said.

From me end, personally I will never accept any payment through Stripe again. It's very much geared towards the merchant and not protecting, or giving any rights to the customer. They store your card details on file (I believe some sites do this, but from my end my details have been abused).

I don't know enough about business law but would imagine Stripe would have made sure everything is legitimate, even though it feels completely unlawful. All they say on their site is that the merchant needs permission up front, but there is absolutely nothing in place for the customer to agree, or sign to give that consent. Their customer service has been appalling too and they will not accept any responsibility for what's happened.

Looks like Stripe have an active Twitter. I'd be hashtagging and calling them out for their proposition and poor customer service.

I have two accounts, for this reason, one is a debit account and the other is a savings account. Any money I get I push over to my savings. My partner gets frustrated with me sometimes when I do this but when I see big chunks of money being taken all of a sudden and you haven't got it to give away. Nine times out of ten I have got my money back very rarely do they keep it but I don't want the argument to get it back.

Problem with Stripe is that it puts the onus on the businesses/individuals being honest and obtaining permission. As your case has highlighted this sort of system is massively open to abuse.

Glad you've got your money back OP. I wonder how many other people she's done this to?

If you read the posts about Stripe more carefully - you’d have your answer as to how she retained OP’s details.

I have. I also understand how Stripe works - quite unlike a lot of posters here who are writing complete misinformation.

You clearly don’t as you are puzzled as to how this happened, when it’s clear by this point.

It's very much geared towards the merchant and not protecting, or giving any rights to the customer. They store your card details on file

I'm glad you got your money back OP. The trainer certainly behaved poorly.

However, this is inaccurate. Actually there are a lot of protections for the consumer, including that payments are not immediately made to the vendor / seller.

Your card details are not stored on file either - they are encrypted.

What is possible, and which you somehow agreed to, is to enable recurring payments to be taken. Your trainer was wrong by not explicitly gaining consent.

There's full information on the process on the Stripe help sections on privacy, validation & verification.

Nope.

I'm not puzzled; with respect, OP is.

It's the trainer, not Stripe that is at fault. OP did authorise the payments (she must have) but the trainer was not upfront and transparent about what she was doing.

All of the details of encryption are easily found - just take a quick look if you're unsure.

People are a bit silly to blindly accept explanations they don't understand & haven't researched.

What I don’t get is why you thought you had 2 more sessions?

you say the booking is for 2 sessions and you had originally booked 2 and was unwell so told her to charge you anyway.
you then got another invoice for another 2 sessions and completed them and decided you no longer needed sessions with her, and now all of a sudden you thought you had 2 more sessions?

it sounds like you said see you next week as you didn’t want to let her know at the time that you didn’t want to do anymore sessions (to avoid confrontation) and maybe was hoping not to mention it unless she mentioned it. She didn’t and automatically charged you (which I agree was cheeky) and now you’ve realised the error and your excuse is that you thought you had two more sessions? When you had already done 2 and paid for 2. It doesn’t make sense

Actually there are a lot of protections for the consumer, including that payments are not immediately made to the vendor / seller.

She was paid within 24-48 hours of that money leaving my account. I actually contacted my bank straight away as the money was taken and Visa tried to write a note to say it was unauthorised but apparently it was too late. Doesn't exactly sound like I had much protection does it.

OP did authorise the payments (she must have) but the trainer was not upfront and transparent about what she was doing.

There is a massive difference between using your card to pay for something via a payment link and giving consent to take money straight from somebody's account (on a recurring basis may I flippin' add! ) So no, I didn't authorise anything of the sort. I couldn't even cancel it my end. The bank in the end had to put a block on the whole thing to stop anything else coming straight out of it. Does that sound like protection for the consumer?!

Al of the details of encryption are easily found - just take a quick look if you're unsure.

Yes, I know they are encrypted and that's what I meant by stored. She selected to automatically take it from my account, without permission. She found my name/details from the information she had on her merchant interface from the previous times I had paid using the invoices.

Hope that clears everything up for you!

She was paid within 24-48 hours of that money leaving my account.

Yes, 2 working days is standard.

There is a massive difference between using your card to pay for something via a payment link and giving consent to take money straight from somebody's account

I agree. However you had to at some point have facilitated this - it seems clear that this was erroneous & due to the trainer's poor practice (for clarity, I'm not saying you did something wrong) - it's not a Stripe issue. Why do you think it is?

She selected to automatically take it from my account, without permission.

Exactly - she did this. It's fraudulent practice by her, not Stripe.

At least you've had your money returned (I also think you did inadvertently cause confusion by saying you'd be back the following week).

@EarringsandLipstick - Again, that's no protection is it, considering I called my bank straight away. Unless you are constantly checking your finances, the chances of the consumer actually stopping a transaction is very very slim.

However you had to at some point have facilitated this

Facilitated her being able to automatically take money....how? Please explain.

it's not a Stripe issue. Why do you think it is?

Because if you look at the interface, Stripe provides merchants with the option to do this. It's disgraceful whatever way you dress it up.

I also think you did inadvertently cause confusion by saying you'd be back the following week).

And that gives her the right to take money automatically does it?

Nobody had said Stripe was fraudulent, simply that their merchant software, which OP took the trouble to screenshot, is open to misuse by naive or unscrupulous merchants. Other payment platforms - don’t have this weakness.

OMG you paid the invoice twice? Why? Do you normally do that. You'll pay her for expediting the matter? Are you rich? What about DD? You must be firm, not nice. The time for nice has long gone. She may have broken laws by using your private information. Why does she have your bank details. Make sure no more monies come out of your account. Do not pay for extra lessons. I don't understand you. 😕.