To think this kind of behaviour in the classroom is not acceptable?

[stabledoor]

My DD is in Y7 at the local comprehensive. I have a DS in Y10 at the same school. It's a big and very diverse school, but I'm a strong supporter of comprehensive education, and have been firmly of the belief that a bright child will do well wherever they are. My DS is motivated, has been lucky enough to make friends with a group of like-minded and bright boys, and appears to be doing well - academically and socially.

However, from my DD I'm hearing a lot more than I ever have from my DS about some of the behaviour in the school, and I'm just astounded at some of the things that I'm hearing. I don't know if this is normal for urban secondary schools, and very keen to get some perspective on this from others. I'm worried about the effect this is having on her and her learning (she's a very different character to my DS).

For example, my DD says that in class, during lessons, the other girls will do things like sit there and curl their eyelashes or get out body spray and spray themselves and the teachers do nothing. Children turn up late to lessons, sometimes with ridiculous excuses, and teachers appear to do nothing about it. All of Y7 have to have computers this year and she says often in lessons, if they're meant to be doing something on their laptop the other kids will just be playing games or watching stuff - the teachers seem to be aware of this and do nothing about it. They have a lot of supply teachers and she tells me that some teachers say to the class that they don't have to do the work that's been set, just go on their laptops and as long as they keep quiet that's fine. In Art and Drama, 2 subjects which my DD loves, the teachers apparently spend so much time trying to control the class - one boy in particular - that they hardly get to actually do or learn anything - to the extent that DD said the other day that she's beginning to hate art lessons.

So AIBU to be shocked by some of these things. Are they just what happens in schools these days? Will things be any better if I move my DD to another school (if I can even do that - we'd have to wait for a place to come up as other local schools are all over-subscribed)? Should I be complaining to the school about these things that I'm hearing? (I have already written to them about a couple of teachers/lessons that I haven't been happy about).

This sounds quite typical of secondary schools local to me. I’m not sure what can be done about the teaching but it’s the behaviour management and pastoral care that I was interested in. My oldest went to two schools and they both had similar in terms of behaviour but the way it was managed and the time and effort spent on mental health was amazing. What is that side of the school like?

The feral children have parents that don’t care. The Vicky Pollard stereotype didn’t come from nowhere. If it’s not a Vicky Pollard type mother coming into shout at the teachers for disciplining their child, then the child will be excused for having a learning disability. There is no behaviour gage can be explained away by some condition or mental health issue. Because no one, no one at all is responsible for theirs or their kids behaviour.

Sounds fairly typical.
At my childs school they put the children in sets for the main subjects after Christmas in year 7.

It seems to work fairly well as the ones who want to learn are kept separated from the ones who don't.

Obviously it isn't very beneficial for the children who want to learn but struggle.

I'm not aware of support for mental health being a particular strength of the school's. My impression is that the staff have enough on their plates just trying to keep the place on the rails from one day to the next!

Yes, I think setting would help (although I appreciate that this isn't fair or right for all) but unfortunately the school only seems to set in maths, so everything else is taught in class until Y10 (I could weep).

This is why teachers are leaving in droves- the alphabet soup of ‘diagnosis’ that mean that children can do whatever the fuck they like because they have “additional needs”

Many moons ago the school I went to had a needing improvement rating and was well known for behavioral issues. They never made a secret of it either. I was a struggle but clever kid so was often in more disruptive sets. I was disruptive myself (not because of my set) but the teachers assigned to the more disruptive groups were well prepared for it, and gave every student the best possible chance they could. They were hand picked because they took a different approach. It was all about the out of class support my school had that made the difference. If the school is open, honest and able to put the time and money into their students beyond just trying to churn out GCSE results then the behavior of one or a handful of children won't impact the majority.
Your DS will also have spent of lot of being at this school under some restrictions during COVID which is likely to have made a difference to his year group compared to DD.

It’s behaviour like this that causes so many teachers to leave. No wonder we have such a shortage, just a difficult job.

complain to the school every single time. Not to the teacher, because individual teachers cant do anything at all, the discipline policy has to be school wide, and enforced across the whole school

Never let it go, complain every time. It is a failure in management, and it is inexcusable

It does sound like they are also suffering from lack of teachers as well, but that is no reason to allow poor bahaviour

No this isn’t typical. It’s not that unusual, but it’s certainly not typical.

Not unusual at all. At my previous school the Y7 cohort were the worst ever, running round corridors screaming, throwing chairs, telling teachers to fuck off, fighting, carrying weapons - and there was little that the school could do to manage the behaviour as they can't physically touch them to remove them from classrooms and there was little support from the parents.

That’s worrying though so believable. I would contact the Head or Deputy (by email so you have proof) and ask for an appointment to discuss your concerns. See what they have to say.

Sounds like my experience of secondary school. Drugs were also the norm at my school as in pupils on drugs at school. Fighting was also a regular occurrence. The anxiety of just getting through the day unscathed was overwhelming at times, my stomach is flipping just thinking about it. I didn’t really confide in my mum as I just presumed it was normal. Feel really sorry for teachers, can’t completely blame it all on parents either, my own research points a lot towards our system.

I think there’s a difference between behaviour that impacts other classmates and behaviour that doesn’t. Other students curling eyelashes or playing games instead of working shouldn’t stop your DD from doing her own work.

Is your DD generally happy? Does she have friends at school? When my DD started secondary her cousin also started at a different school. My niece was determined to find fault with her school because most of her primary friends had gone to private schools and she felt resentful that she hadn’t. So every day there would be a laundry list of every transgression she’d witnessed. My SIL was so stressed about this ‘terrible’ school and all the rough students. Meanwhile DD reported that many of the same things happened at her school but she just ignored them and focused on her own work/friends.

You make it sound like the point of setting is to keep your child away from the oiks.
It isn't; it's to make it easier to ensure children are working at an appropriate level - which hopefully makes it less likely that they will switch off and more likely that they will be motivated to work.

One of the big disadvantages of setting can be that the lower sets end up with a disproportionate number of the disruptive children. Schools do try to mitigate that - the lower sets are often smaller, and may get more TA support. However this doesn't always work, as you have acknowledged. That's partly why some schools prefer to stick with mixed-ability, and spread the trouble-makers as thinly as possible.

YABU to be shocked.

This is why people send their children to private schools. There are other reasons too, but the way children can be left to sink or swim in state schools is high on the list of reasons people go private.

This doesn't surprise me at all. I teach at a private school so we don't have this, but I don't think this is unusual for many state schools. It is wrong, but it doesn't surprise me. From the title of your thread I was expecting far worse!

Schools and exams only measure performance in one and we've all fallen into the same trap.

Why do we accept theres a group who want to learn and a group who dont?

Teach kids practical stuff not useless facts!

Well it certainly sounds like my secondary school in the late 80s (apart from the laptops)

A lot of the behaviours you describe don't actually impact your DD's learning.

I’m in Scotland where no one gets punished for anything if they are under 18 and from a rough background. So if a child assaults your child and is charged by police, they can be sat next to your child again the next day in class. There is nothing you can do about it. It’s absolutely horrendous. The poor, poor kids. There’s a reason school refusal is rising rapidly. There is no way as an adult I would want to head into such a violent and lawless situation every day yet we expect it of our kids. It’s crazy. My kids school is meant to be one of the best state schools in Scotland.

Teaching early secondary is extremely difficult.

I mean, music lessons in year 7? With the buttons on the generic keyboard all enabled at all times? DJ! DJ! DJ! sexy lady moan! DJ! DJ!

They have no idea what they're interested in. I honestly understand not being bothered until about year 9 when GCSE options start to manifest. I bet the teachers are fed up and permissive. Pick your battles, etc.

It sounds about right to me. Behaviour has got much worse since covid.

Retired secondary school teacher here, with friends still working. The examples you have given do happen, but are not happening in the majority of lessons in the majority of schools. I was never told to fuck off, had I been, that student would have been internally suspended. Students refusing to work in a lesson would be removed, then later disciplined for their poor behaviour. Behaviour Management in secondary schools is vital to successful teaching and learning, it is a relentless slog but has to be consistently carried out. For every disturbing incident you hear about, contact the teacher, tutor or head of year. You be as persistent as the school should be.

THIS.
Many State schools now appear to be horrendous.

People choose to send their children to Private schools to avoid this.