Is this behaviour manipulative? How to handle it?

[Eotsn]

Parent plays music (techno) very loudly on all car journeys. Asks child if they like the music. Child reluctantly admits that they do not. Parent tells child that this is not a nice thing to say, it is hurtful, disappointing and that child should make more effort to like it because parent likes it. Parent continues to play music loudly. A couple of days later, parent asks child again if child likes the music. Child says yes.

Parent has lost a friend tragically. When discussing it with child, child says that the deceased person is in a better place, trying to comfort parent. Parent then says, "oh so if I died you wouldn't bother crying, you'd just say oh well, they're in a better place. You probably wouldn't even care if I died". Child is becoming nervous and self conscious of what they say, in case they cause upset to someone. Child now feels that they are always saying the wrong thing.

If child is unwell and does not see parent at the weekend, parent will say, "you probably weren't even sick, I think you just didn't want to see me". Child has said that they now feel guilty and will be anxious when next seeing parent.

Parent is always looking for sympathy. Every time child sees parent there is something wrong. If child does not make enough fuss over parent and does not give enough sympathy parent will say things like (imitating child's voice) "oh you'll be fine, I'm off now meeting my friend, too busy to worry or care about you". Child then feels guilty.

Child has once asked other parent to speak to this parent about an issue. They did, and child was told off and made to feel incredibly guilty for telling.

There is a lot more, but those are some examples. I want to know what this behaviour is? Child in this situation is sensitive as it is and a very deep thinker. I don't know how to help them.

There is no Aibu question really, I just posted here for traffic as I really don't know what to do here. Apologies if that is annoying.

Narcissist - look it up

Narcissistic abuse

This is your ex?

You can’t stop the manipulative person behaving how they are behaving.

You can give the child a clear alternative point of view of the situation, with an understanding of where their responsibility for other people’s feelings begins and ends, as well as alternative outcomes for the situations they’ve been placed in

eg “It’s not wrong to dislike a certain kind of music, even if your friend or family member really loves it. People are allowed to have their own tastes and nobody’s tastes are “better” than anyone else’s.

You don’t have to pretend you like something g that you actually don’t. It’s kind to show some tolerance of other people’s tastes if they show tolerance of yours in return - that’s called compromise - but it’s not kind to force your tastes on others if it’s clearly making them uncomfortable.

If someone is playing music loudly that you don’t like, it’s okay to ask them to change it to something you both like. If they won’t, you can put headphones on, and if they keep doing it or get angry with you for putting headphones on, they’re forcing you to do something you’re not comfortable with and that’s not okay. The best approach then is to reduce the amount of time you spend in situations where you can’t exercise any control over things that affect you badly.”

When someone is this outright manipulative, you have to give the kid a clear understanding of why the behaviour is unhealthy. They might not be able to choose to spend less time with the manipulative parent yet, but one day they will.

I sympathize... have a similar situation, agree with advice above. I would call this bullying / emotionally abusive behaviour. The best thing you can do is to model a different more respectful way of interacting with the child so they have the comparison and validate them (in a way that is not disrespectful to the other parent) when they bring their concerns to you. It sounds like you are doing this already. Teaching your child the value of their feelings and to be assertive is really important in this situation I don't think you will be able to influence the other parent unfortunately but when the child is a bit older they may not want to spend as much time with them if they keep bullying them, you could always try to point that out to the other parent in a calm way if there's an opportunity. The great thing about having a separate home with you is that you can make this a safe space for your child which will make a huge difference. I was advised by a child psychologist that my DD will have to negotiate her own relationship with her Dad so I can't really interfere but that I can be there to support when she raises concerns, to ask her how the interaction made her feel and validate her. Wishing you all the best 🤗

ps. I would also make a point of telling the child when a relevant situation crops up eg. if they are worried about you, "it's a parent's job to look after the child not the other way around."
Sometimes my DD has worried that I will react like her Dad when she has done something that would make him angry so I take those opportunities to reinforce a different a response. I hope that with repetition this with counteract his manipulative tactics.

pps. not sure what age your child is but it might be good to also teach them the concept of "emotional blackmail".

This is really sad.

If this is your kiddo and that’s their other parent, you can only give your child tools to help navigate it.

I often think it would have been a huge help if someone had definitely told me that my Dad had MH issues, and that his behavior (similar to what you describe, but never diagnosed) was not normal. If they had defined it as having an illness, like cancer, I think that would have helped. I suspect the concept that he was ill seemed so basic and obvious to everyone else that they never thought to discuss it so plainly with me.

So it was a situation I had to learn to navigate on my own. I think having an objective adult to discuss things with would have been helpful. My Mom couldn’t be that person of course.

Id there a person in this child’s life that could explain that these behaviors aren’t normal?

I was advised by a child psychologist that my DD will have to negotiate her own relationship with her Dad so I can't really interfere but that I can be there to support when she raises concerns,

This is exactly what I think, as a child that experienced similar with my parent. You can’t navigate it for your own child. But you can ensure she has support. (But I really think kids in this situation need support from someone who has no attachment to the other person, no emotions and no baggage related to them.)

Narcissism 101.

Some really good replies above.

The NSPCC has a section on emotional abuse. You can see here that you described several abusive behaviours in your OP:

• telling a child they aren’t good enough
• not listening to a child or letting them express their views
• belittling a child
• verbal humiliation
• undermining or mocking a child.

I bet you can tick off a few more from that list. https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/child-abuse-and-neglect/emotional-abuse

As you'll see in the section, emotional abuse can have serious long-term impacts on a child's development and future prospects. You might want to call their helpline for specific advice.

I was taught that even one trusted adult identifying that the abuser's actions are wrong, and don't indicate failures on the child's part, can dramatically soften the lifetime effects. Even better if that person can identify the behaviours and give the child 'tools' to protect her/his mental health. Better yet if many trusted adults are doing this!

Headfuckery.

How is a child supposed to navigate that?

That’s very fucked up! How old is this kid and can they tell someone? Was this you?

It might be good for the child to be given the opportunity to chat to childline. They're really very good. Therapy would also be good for the child.

The other parent and other good people in their life need to become damage limitation to offset the emotionally manipulative parent.

When child is old enough, they can choose to spend less time with manipulative parent.

💐 For you OP. This sounds so sad.

I would contact a child psychologist for support now. This is really going to fuck up the child.

Thank you so much for all the responses. Some really good advice.
Child is 10.
I looked up narcissistic abuse as suggested and all of the boxes can be ticked unfortunately. It's so unsettlling to find out DC is now being subjected to the same crap I was. I found it difficult to deal with and break free of, but that's going to be so much more difficult for DC.
Thank you so much for the advice, and I'm so sorry to hear some of you have been through this, either yourselves or your DC.

@AliceOlive Aliceolive, I don't know if it is an illness. He's always been somewhat lacking as a father. I'm hindsight I think I make excuses for him, assured DC that he loves and cares about them very much etc. I'm honestly not sure about saying anything that will make DC feel sorry for him, as I went down the road of feeling sorry for him. So I stayed with him to try and help. Out of pity and guilt. It nearly destroyed me. I don't want this for DC.
Can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your parent now?

@HappyBunnyNow do you mind if I ask how old your child is now? Did you explain about emotional blackmail and at what age? I'm so afraid of doing further damage. This has had such a terrible affect.
We have another DC but they seem to be immune to their father's BS, thankfully.

Parent is a cunt, clearly.

I’m not sure it’s an illness either, but I do think it would have been easier to understand if he’d actually been diagnosed with something.

I still sometimes wonder why he acts like this. I think it’s nature plus nurture in this case. He also has many ASD traits, which I think make it tough for him to understand healthy behavior and relationships.

He’s extremely prone to being hurt or embarrassed if he perceives someone has been disrespectful to him. It comes out as anger, though so it me years to recognize it. I had figured out at a young how far it went to calming things when I would just say “I love you Daddy.” If he feels needed and loved he’s a different person. (It obviously shouldn’t be on a child to make their parent feel this way!)

He does have the capability of being empathetic and kind. He could also be very loving and helpful if I was sick or need anything something. He wouldn’t pay child support until made to do so, but today he would give me just about anything I ask. In fact it makes him feel good when I ask.

I have a good relationship with my Dad now, and I have worked at it because I think it’s best for me. I live 500 miles away and have boundaries in place on my end. He ignores them, I just distance myself a bit then we pretend nothing happened and move on. He’s mellowed greatly though. He’s 82 and I’m 50.

Is your other child older or younger? Same sex? Do they talk to one another about this?

Parent is disgusting and unfit to parent. Poor kid is going to be messed up in the head for years.

It’s really not helpful for you to be writing that to a mother looking for solutions to help her child.

We don’t have to be unhealthy as adults just because our parents were.

Hi Eotsn,
My child was 11 when we separated now 12. They are a deep thinker like yours and we can talk about subjects like emotionally abusive relationships and bullying in a relaxed way especially when things happen at school, the school has done some good general education with the kids about respect and assertiveness, empathy etc.. I'm careful never to bad mouth their other parent but when something upsetting has happened I am supportive and agree with my child's point of view to validate their feelings. It sounds like you have separated from the other parent which is great, this sends a very clear message that their behaviour is not acceptable which will not be lost on your child. One strong and supportive parent can make all the difference. Your child will be watching your behaviour and be influenced by you just as much as the other parent likely a lot more so I would say just pour your energy into being a great role model for them and surround them with other trustworthy, kind people so they can see for themselves what reasonable behaviour is. Sadly there are lots of parents out there who don't treat their kids with kindness and respect but you sound very caring and that is going to make all the difference. Personally I find consulting with a child psychologist from time to time very helpful. My child doesn't want to speak to one but having access to an expert from time to time to ask for advice has been extremely helpful. They have reassured me that one supportive, loving parent can be an anchor for the child and is enough to get them through this intact.