Are male role models really so vital?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I was talking with a friend who is not with the father of her ds - in fact the father is not involved at all. She was talking about how important it is for her ds to have positive male role models in his life. She is in a same sex relationship now and is cultivating relationships with various males from her extended family with her ds to ensure that her ds has these apparently vital positive role models.

I'm sure this is great but I wondered how important it actually is. My dfriend is going to quite some lengths to get it all in place in some of the cases and I wonder if it's worth it? I have two sons and they do see their df regularly but he's not that great of a role model (bit of a deadbeat dad, as they are increasingly aware as they get older) and they rarely see either grandfather and there are no other male family members. I also don't have close male friends that they see so the only males they really know are their df (not a role model) and teachers.

My conversation with my friend has got me wondering if I have been remiss in not paying more attention to this - I have been split from their df for about 10 years.

AIBU not to have addressed this?

My DH grew up without a dad and not many male role models. We’ve been together since we were kids and it’s interesting to see him learn to be a man. He’s had to figure it out and there have been times when he’s expressed how hard it has been to be a dad when he had no idea of how to act as a father. Your boys sound like they are doing well but maybe down the line there may be things they missed.

As a single mother I have welcomed positive male role models for DD - her BFFs parent are her godparents and she is their 'other daughter'. BFF's Dad is a loving and caring person who models being a good partner and father. Other people include e.g. Scout leaders and teachers. All people that are decent human beings who respect others, including women and children, and have functional lives and relationships.

I think it's important yes, if only to add a counterpoint to the overwhelming number of bad role males models in sports, politics, and media. There is a time in our lives when we pull away from our primary caregivers and look to other people to help us figure out who we are. It's not always possible to fill our kids' lives with the right role models in every way but if you do have a chance for your kids to spend time with positive male influences it can't hurt.

That does make sense, but when I think about my mother, she wasn't all that great and I certainly haven't modelled my parenting on hers but have done ok. I often felt as your dh describes but did grow up with a mother who was involved, very much so, What if he had had a dad but an average to middling one? It does seem it all boils down to the fact that if kids have great people around them as children this will obviously benefit them as adults. If not, they will have to muddle through (as most of us seem to do). Also, and unrelatedly, children on poverty often end up involved in crime, and most of these children will have absent fathers, which are a symptom, and perhaps a partial cause, of their predicament.

Whoops, that got a bit muddled.... meant to say *bad male role models

Give me the data, tell me what you want to 'prove' and I'll prove it for you. That's the reliability of much research, sponsored research always comes down on the side of the sponsor, isn't that odd!

I think it is important. I think good male role models demonstrate a manner of operating with values and principles that negotiate with, through and sometimes around pervasive stereotypes about what it is to be a man.

I’m a single Mum and sadly can’t find ANY good male role models for my son.

I think a lot of women don't really understand things like male hierarchy and social interaction. You see this in the threads discussing whether to hit back/is violence ever the solution, etc.

In the recent thread about this a lot of posters were saying violence is never the solution, blah blah blah, but most men understand that if a boy doesn't hit back he'll become a target and most likely have a miserable time. Women don't understand this because they don't have to deal with it as much.

Even worse are the ones who bang on about toxic masculinity etc. It may be a thing but you're not going to single handedly fight it and all that will happen if you tell your son to walk away/turn the other cheek is that he'll get victimised again and again.

That's one of the hard truths of being a male.

My kids are fucked then...

From personal experience, it’s really important

No, it’s not offensive. It’s an unfortunate fact of modern life. People aren’t thinking properly and committing before having children. If they were, there wouldn’t be so many broken homes and single parents.

It doesn’t matter whether the single parent is male or female - a child needs both influences, both role models.

A mother cannot be everything her son needs, just like a father cannot be everything his daughter needs.

Those who have ended up in a situation where they are the sole caregiver should be finding appropriate influences of the same sex for their child.

It is doing them a major disservice to think you are all they need when it simply isn’t true.

And, fwiw, I think good male role models are important for girls too. They provide the default bar for normality and set the expectations of what she will and won't tolerate from men in the future.

I can't believe I've just read this

They may be lucky if they fit in socially and have a decent friend group, but IME if a bully/group of bullies decides to target somebody it generally won't stop until the victim stands up for himself. Even if the school manage to successfully intervene (which is often not the case) it will often damage their self esteem greatly if they perceive themselves as a wimp. This is why so many films are about the underdog male getting the better of 'the jocks'.

My cousin's life was made an absolute misery by bullies. Used to have bruises all over his arms/legs from them hitting him and he didn't want to be 'a snitch' as he was on the periphery of the in crowd and knew nobody would respect him if he ran to teacher. I (three years older and training Thai boxing 3x a week) elbowed his main bully in the jaw and gave the other a bloody nose which stopped it instantly (and got me in a lot of trouble).

My cousin then started coming to my club and it changed him completely. He remained the chilled out goofy guy he always was but after months of sparring he was much more confident. He said to me one day that he was no longer scared as he realised that it had all been psychological. After getting used to being hit in sparring he said he was no longer scared of being beaten up and would fight back every time if he needed to. Realistically, a bully would have to be much bigger and stronger to be a problem as most don't want to fight for three minutes like a kickboxer is used to. They want an easy target.

After a couple of years of being bullied he never had any issues. One guy tried to pick on him and my cousin said "ok, I'll bring in some gloves and we can have at it". Guy suddenly didn't want to know. 😂

It wasn't important for me. I never knew my father and I don't feel it has affected me at all.

Not that I think violence is ever good. It's just something a lot of boys have to deal with.

I'm amazed how many posters confidently state that it's all about socialisation when there is absolutely loads of data showing that testosterone increases drive and also aggression.

Some of the findings from previous studies are that:

• CEOs tend to have higher testosterone levels than most men
• Violent inmates tend to have higher testosterone levels
• Testosterone increases violence in both sexes
• Testosterone increases the fight or flight part of the brain
• Shitloads of mammalian studies like robins acting more territorial if injected with testosterone and male elephants being extremely volatile during 'musth' when their levels rise by about 4x.

🙄

Good role models yes. Men who are caring, value education, respect women as equals, are able to show emotions.

Television, film, games (eg Fortnite) perpetuates many toxic masculinity behaviours so having some real life examples is important.

Oxygen. Water. Shelter. An oven. Some clothes. These are vital.

A male role model is good. But not vital.

I've noticed that my now adult son, who grew up without his dad being mentally present, and then not physically present, has always chosen friends, male and female, and now his wife, who have very good fathers who are very involved and to have taken a massive interest in him. He has clearly modelled himself on them, and I think he'll be a terrific father.

I agree regarding male model good not vital.
Many successful men raised by single Mothers with no male role models. You don't tend to hear about those so much because we live in a society that likes to pretend it supports single Mothers but the reality is very different. Plus the media is very biased.

So better to be the punchbag then, right?

I think kids can find good role models for themselves. My own ddad had a poor role model in his own Dad but went to Scouts and found male role models that showed him how to be kind and empathetic and a useful member of society, found him an Apprenticeship and all sorts.

I have no empirical evidence to hand but I strongly suspect that there’s a significant correlation between young boys who join gangs/get involved in crime/deal drugs and the lack of a dad at home.
Obviously there are many other factors at play - poverty, fear etc but the correlation is there nonetheless.