Page 4 | Murderers' mothers are not to blame

Zuyi · 2023-04-14T12:37:58+00:00

"once again you have that highly enabling mother and a child whose behaviours were overlooked time and time and time again and the mother just continuously makes every effort to protect this child even after it's abundantly clear that they have done the worst thing imaginable. " This is from the most recent episode of the podcast Redhanded where they talk about murderers. I just find it enfuriating that they keep blaming mothers. Do they really think that a bit more discipline from mothers early on would have been enough to cure violent psychopaths? And what should the mothers have done exactly? AIBU mothers are not responsible for their adult son's crimes because of being too indulgent. Or are they, and I'm somehow missing the power of mothers?

Mangogogogo · 15/04/2023 10:08

Red handed has gone sooo downhill. Although I stopped listening when they booted off ranting because ‘their listeners hadn’t voted enough at the bbc podcast awards and they lost’ yuk.

i voted yanbu because it’s a complete cop out to blame the mum (or the parents). And, as we all know, it’s dull to keep banging on about the same thing, which I find a lot of true crime people get fixated.

i tend to stay away from podcasts where they state their opinions without even contemplating that they don’t know the full story, unless they were in the court room, nor are they in any way forensically or investigatory trained. But if you are looking for a new one sinisterhood are great and true crimecast :)

mrssanchez · 15/04/2023 10:09

My son is violent, he has ASD and is still in primary school so there is hope but I really worry for his future.
We try everything to help him, he knows right from wrong and a million calming strategies but in the moment, he just lashes out and it's so scary.

I have a lot of empathy for parents, like the recent shooter in the USA whose mother rang the police to report that he had a gun, she must have been so desperate.

proppy · 15/04/2023 10:10

Lots of women grew up in abusive homes &/or have difficult relationships with their mothers, but there isn't a shit load of female killers.

Madamecastafiore · 15/04/2023 10:10

LlynTegid · 14/04/2023 13:40

The biggest UK killer of modern times, though never charged, is Boris Johnson. Would you blame his mother, or his wife-beating father? Or neither?

Agree mothers should not be blamed.

Tony Blair is responsible for more deaths.

mrssanchez · 15/04/2023 10:11

proppy · 15/04/2023 10:10

Lots of women grew up in abusive homes &/or have difficult relationships with their mothers, but there isn't a shit load of female killers.

Maybe they are just better at getting away with it...?

mrssanchez · 15/04/2023 10:12

(Sorry, inappropriate joke)

Sleepyandconfused · 15/04/2023 10:14

I mean both parents can be very much to blame for how a child turns out. A lot of serial killers, for example, were directly impacted by poor or neglectful or abusive parenting.

Grimeduster · 15/04/2023 10:17

proppy · 15/04/2023 10:10

Lots of women grew up in abusive homes &/or have difficult relationships with their mothers, but there isn't a shit load of female killers.

This! I was coming on to comment the exact same thing. Millions of children of both sexes grow up in violent, abusive homes. Yet there are far, far more male serial killers and murderers than female ones.

That's the probably the Mother's fault also, for raising boys and girls differently 🙄

Sleepyandconfused · 15/04/2023 10:31

mrssanchez · 15/04/2023 10:11

Maybe they are just better at getting away with it...?

Show quote history

😂😂😂

proppy · 15/04/2023 10:33

tbf they probably are!

I mean you watch these crime shows & think how did you think you waking get away with this!

clocktock · 15/04/2023 10:40

I nearly lost a family member ten years ago. To a man who brutally attacked them. This monster had been bought up by his lone mother who fiercely protected him from anyone disapproval. He got into lots of trouble as a child and she wouldn't hear a word said against him. He was spoilt terribly in every way.

Even in court for his attack she made excuses for him. Blamed the victim.

He's gone on to commit other crimes and is in a secure unit.

Do I blame his mother. Totally yes!. But also his extended family and his absent father. This monster thinks he's above everyone, has never been held accountable for a thing his whole life.

tiger2691 · 15/04/2023 10:57

I was a forced adoption (1962), my adoptive mum was a witch, locked me up in a bathroom for a year. My grandma told social services, they removed me (aged 3-ish) and placed me (fostered) with my adoptive mother's brother and his wife. My foster mother was worse, far worse, right up until i was aged 15, then I was bigger than her, so the physical abuse stopped, but not the mental cruelty.

The father figures in my life: my adoptive father never harmed me but knew what was going on and did nothing. My foster father was a fantastic and kind man, he just didn't know about the abuse I suffered, my foster mother was an expert at doing stuff when no one was around, and of course I thought/ was trained to believe the abuse was all my fault and fully deserved.

But worse than all of that was when I met my birth mother - at age 31, my mum was 54, she said to me I bet you've had a wonderful loving upbringing, and yes, I had to lie, the truth would've destroyed her, she was destroyed enough by my being removed at 3 days old from the cot in hospital, she said she never agreed or signed fuck all, that they just took me.

Many of these abridged details only came to light, when I read my social services files, which I requested to do, to help me in my search for my family. Most is still a blur and buried deep, they (the women) are forgiven, but I have bad days and weeks where i hate them and i hate me, and i hate my life.

For balance: when I had 10 years of intensive therapy, which included group psychotherapy, the stories about fathers/ male relatives and other men were truly horrific. At least i never suffered any sexual abuse, or ended up in a children's home, I quite literally would've been buggered.

Sorry, think i was triggered here.

TheShellBeach · 15/04/2023 11:04

Elliot Turner's mother and father lied to the police and tampered with evidence after he'd strangled his girlfriend in their house.
They were both convicted and sent to prison, as was the very indulged, spoilt Elliot.

Ktime · 15/04/2023 11:13

tiger2691 · 15/04/2023 10:57

I was a forced adoption (1962), my adoptive mum was a witch, locked me up in a bathroom for a year. My grandma told social services, they removed me (aged 3-ish) and placed me (fostered) with my adoptive mother's brother and his wife. My foster mother was worse, far worse, right up until i was aged 15, then I was bigger than her, so the physical abuse stopped, but not the mental cruelty.

The father figures in my life: my adoptive father never harmed me but knew what was going on and did nothing. My foster father was a fantastic and kind man, he just didn't know about the abuse I suffered, my foster mother was an expert at doing stuff when no one was around, and of course I thought/ was trained to believe the abuse was all my fault and fully deserved.

But worse than all of that was when I met my birth mother - at age 31, my mum was 54, she said to me I bet you've had a wonderful loving upbringing, and yes, I had to lie, the truth would've destroyed her, she was destroyed enough by my being removed at 3 days old from the cot in hospital, she said she never agreed or signed fuck all, that they just took me.

Many of these abridged details only came to light, when I read my social services files, which I requested to do, to help me in my search for my family. Most is still a blur and buried deep, they (the women) are forgiven, but I have bad days and weeks where i hate them and i hate me, and i hate my life.

For balance: when I had 10 years of intensive therapy, which included group psychotherapy, the stories about fathers/ male relatives and other men were truly horrific. At least i never suffered any sexual abuse, or ended up in a children's home, I quite literally would've been buggered.

Sorry, think i was triggered here.

That’s horrific, I’m so sorry they did that to you

I was a forced adoption (1962), my adoptive mum was a witch, locked me up in a bathroom for a year.

This stood out for me as that’s what they did to poor Victoria Climbié. Incan’t imagine the horror of being in a cold tiled bathroom for extended periods and nights

I hope the adoptive mother and father and the foster mother are dead?

tiger2691 · 15/04/2023 11:27

Ktime · 15/04/2023 11:13

That’s horrific, I’m so sorry they did that to you

I was a forced adoption (1962), my adoptive mum was a witch, locked me up in a bathroom for a year.

This stood out for me as that’s what they did to poor Victoria Climbié. Incan’t imagine the horror of being in a cold tiled bathroom for extended periods and nights

I hope the adoptive mother and father and the foster mother are dead?

Show quote history

Apart from the bathroom I was fed in a cold windowless locked scullery, away from the rest of the family. The bathroom and the scullery is all I remember, which is probably no bad thing.

Adoptive mother and father are dead, I went to their funerals, I dont know why. My foster father died in 2011, i was so sad. My foster mother is still alive and in her 80s. I was offered, from high up, 20 years ago, to have my foster mother investigated with a view to prosecution but i said no.

Toloveandtowork · 15/04/2023 11:45

MissMaple82 · 15/04/2023 10:00

You're missing the point entirely. It's to do with a secure attachment. Growing up in a toxic environment with parents that can't or don't provide that secure attachment causes psychological and neurological harm. It's a proven fact. The majority of serial killers have dysfunctional relationships with their mothers & fathers. So, yes you could say mothers, or fathers are to blame. That's why early help is so massively important, the brain is developing and them early years are crucial. There's absolutely is a connection between the two.

You are are correct that humans need secure attachments to caregivers, the most important being the mother.

However, we evolved to have multiple attachments, and multiple caregivers - extended family and community.

Now it's all on the parents, and the baby only gets limited attachments to others.

Not good for the baby only having one or two options, but they take what they are given.

Also detrimental for the mother, whose whole life can be taken over for many years.

We think the nuclear family is normal, but it's far from it. Little support for mothers, who can be handed all the blame.

Having said all that, there is a side of human nature that is violent and distructive. Just look at history.

Blaming mothers is scapegoating. I'm not saying the don't have an effect, they just don't always have the power.

Ponoka7 · 15/04/2023 11:58

How much focus did the pod cast put on the police officer not following protocol and arresting the perpetrator before the murder, when he was stopped after assaulting Gabby? Unsurprisingly the officer was later charged with DV, on his mistresses as well as his wife.
Yes, sometimes a Mother is at fault, but so is the father. Once again, it's the responsibilities we put on women, as opposed to men.

Ktime · 15/04/2023 12:10

tiger2691 · 15/04/2023 11:27

Apart from the bathroom I was fed in a cold windowless locked scullery, away from the rest of the family. The bathroom and the scullery is all I remember, which is probably no bad thing.

Adoptive mother and father are dead, I went to their funerals, I dont know why. My foster father died in 2011, i was so sad. My foster mother is still alive and in her 80s. I was offered, from high up, 20 years ago, to have my foster mother investigated with a view to prosecution but i said no.

Show quote history

Well, I hope they’re both rotting in hell

I can see why you went to their funerals, maybe for closure?

I hope you have a good life now xx

ConsuelaHammock · 15/04/2023 12:20

samuelabelly · 14/04/2023 21:56

I will go against the grain here and say, without any psychology background, mothers have the biggest impact when they're heavily involved, as most mothers are

Women are the ones who are usually 'left holding the baby'. Natural care givers. Mother Nature wires babies and small children to be closest to mum, usually. Same for most mammals

I think a shit mum is even worse than a shit dad. To be rejected by your dad is one thing- but your own mother, for example? That's horrific.

Men have famously known for bad treatment of women and children for thousands of years. It goes against all norms for a woman to be the bad one

This

RoseThornside · 15/04/2023 12:29

I think the nature/nurture thing is complicated. We inherit personality traits, without a doubt. So a person who treats others appallingly as an adult often has a bad childhood - possibly because their parents had that same genetic personality trait. Go back through the generations and you might see that they all had bad childhoods at the hands of their.abusive/neglectful parents. Then throw in the mix that being abused/neglected as a child can lead to poor outcomes in terms of development and behaviour and then throw in a particular set of circumstances, and for that one person, it's a perfect storm.

JazbayGrapes · 15/04/2023 12:33

Yes and no. No, they aren't legally responsible. Morally - there is a whole different story.

OutsideLookingOut · 15/04/2023 12:42

TheShellBeach · 15/04/2023 11:04

Elliot Turner's mother and father lied to the police and tampered with evidence after he'd strangled his girlfriend in their house.
They were both convicted and sent to prison, as was the very indulged, spoilt Elliot.

Wow I just read about that case! Scary!

Also I remember a chilling thread a long time ago on this site where some mothers admitted they would cover up a child's crimes. Not sure if it was deleted in the end. It reminds me of that.

TooManyPlatesInMotion · 15/04/2023 12:52

Ponoka7 · 15/04/2023 11:58

How much focus did the pod cast put on the police officer not following protocol and arresting the perpetrator before the murder, when he was stopped after assaulting Gabby? Unsurprisingly the officer was later charged with DV, on his mistresses as well as his wife.
Yes, sometimes a Mother is at fault, but so is the father. Once again, it's the responsibilities we put on women, as opposed to men.

@Ponoka7 the episode was only just over an hr long, but they did discuss the conduct of the police in the aftermath of the assault on G, and played the recordings from the bodycams. Piss poor.

maddening · 15/04/2023 12:56

swayingpalmtree · 14/04/2023 13:48

Having worked in forensic psychiatry, what I observed was that every person in that unit had an absolutely appalling childhood- marred by the most horrific abuse imaginable. So if you are asking, does a person's childhood affect how they turn out?- absolutely yes.

However, it doesnt then follow to say that everyone who has a rough childhood turns out to be a killer or violent because many people have had horrific childhoods and are empathic and kind people.

Therefore, what I conclude is that there are two factors to becoming someone who commits horrible crimes: 1. Genetic predisposition (eg. psychopaths literally have differently wired brains to the normal population that exhibit an abnormal empathic response and blunted emotional affect). 2. Environmental triggers- childhood abuse/violence etc

Put those two factors together and you have the perfect storm of dysfunction. Many sociopaths function very well in high positions such as doctors, lawyers, CEOs etc and they never commit crimes.

It doesnt surprise me that mothers are always blamed- look at how single mothers are stereotyped in our culture and yet when its a single dad he practically gets a medal for looking after his own kids.

It also would not surprise me that the parents are abusive due to their own genetic predisposition.

fluffy2buffy · 15/04/2023 13:03

samuelabelly · 14/04/2023 21:56

I will go against the grain here and say, without any psychology background, mothers have the biggest impact when they're heavily involved, as most mothers are

Women are the ones who are usually 'left holding the baby'. Natural care givers. Mother Nature wires babies and small children to be closest to mum, usually. Same for most mammals

I think a shit mum is even worse than a shit dad. To be rejected by your dad is one thing- but your own mother, for example? That's horrific.

Men have famously known for bad treatment of women and children for thousands of years. It goes against all norms for a woman to be the bad one

This.