Murderers' mothers are not to blame

[Zuyi]

"once again you have that highly enabling mother and a child whose behaviours were overlooked time and time and time again and the mother just continuously makes every effort to protect this child even after it's abundantly clear that they have done the worst thing imaginable. "

This is from the most recent episode of the podcast Redhanded where they talk about murderers.

I just find it enfuriating that they keep blaming mothers. Do they really think that a bit more discipline from mothers early on would have been enough to cure violent psychopaths? And what should the mothers have done exactly?

AIBU mothers are not responsible for their adult son's crimes because of being too indulgent.

Or are they, and I'm somehow missing the power of mothers?

I will go against the grain here and say, without any psychology background, mothers have the biggest impact when they're heavily involved, as most mothers are

Women are the ones who are usually 'left holding the baby'. Natural care givers. Mother Nature wires babies and small children to be closest to mum, usually. Same for most mammals

I think a shit mum is even worse than a shit dad. To be rejected by your dad is one thing- but your own mother, for example? That's horrific.

Men have famously known for bad treatment of women and children for thousands of years. It goes against all norms for a woman to be the bad one

I'm sorry for your horrific childhood. But that's complete confirmation bias

Like saying 'I never used a car seat in the 80s and my kids are all fine'

If mothers and what they are like and how they parent aren’t important factors in how adults turn out, why would we bother parenting at all?

Same goes for dads of course, but you only need to look on here on any day to know that it’s still women who do the vast majority of the parenting.

Why try to get them to be kind/have manners/not steal etc if it doesn’t have an abiding influence?!

I think mothers get the blame because traditionally they did the vast majority of parenting. The father was generally only to blame due to his absence rather than his active parenting.

I can completely see why overly permissive parenting (by either parent) is immensely damaging to a child though to the point where I am convinced that a parent who fails to teach their child boundaries and discipline is selfish as they place their desire to avoid having to deal with conflict/tantrums above their child’s needs.

This.

And it can also be an aspect of the parent's narcissistic traits to see the child as an extension of them rather than a person in their own right, which is also damaging.

Plus I've seen several cases of emotional incest (which is more about treating the child as an alternative partner, confiding in them and leaning on them emotionally) which is incredibly damaging and is extremely hard to work through. It can lead to the (usually male) child objectifying other women because it's too weird for them to have both a sexual and emotional connection with women as it reminds them of their mother from whom they could not separate. They also feel extreme guilt have any deep emotional relationships with other women, like they're being unfaithful. It's not conscious though.

Brian Laundrie’s mum did enable her son by helping him cover up murdering his girlfriend. She also enabled him by refusing to disclose to investigators what he had done during the search which prolonged the pain and suffering of Gabby’s parents. She did also overlook his abusive behaviour.

It’s not her fault her son is a killer, but she did enable his attempt to cover it up and behaved appallingly. She’s not innocent in all of this.

There has to be an age when people should stop blaming their childhood for their problems but I do think a bad childhood for some children can turn them it into criminals

I do blame childhoods not individual parents but the way children are raised

I guess you could have 2 children raised the same way one turns out perfectly 'normal' another a serial killer, but parents have to take somw blame who they choose to have children with

Rose West’s mother was possibly also the product of her environment - she was the victim of domestic abuse by her husband, had severe postnatal depression and given electroshock therapy while pregnant with Rose. Rose West’s father on the other hand was a violent sexual abuser.

Of course it’s the fault of the mother. Women are to blame for what men do.

Yeah I agree with PP, it’s because mothers have for a long time done the lions share of raising kids. My mother crippled my self esteem, it’s not like your mum doesn’t have any impact on you at all. Killing people is on the murderer but where someones worst behaviour is continually excused or covered up it seems inevitable that their moral compass is completely haywire.

I’m sure there are godawful people with fantastic parents but the majority who go on to actually kill other people probably had poor parents, be that neglect and abuse to extreme permissiveness or abandonment by fathers. I agree with having a good long hard look at fathers and the role played by their absence, abuse or disinterest.

Thing is though, "teaching" is not the same as "learning". I'm a single parent. Minimal involvement from dad which is causing its own issues. I have always taught my teenage son not to steal, lie, be physical (no hitting siblings etc) but he still does them. I impose sanctions but they have limited effect. I am involving a counsellor and leaning on school for pastoral support. I think the absence of his dad, both emotionally and practically is a huge factor.

It is simplistic to say the least but often adults with significant emotional difficulties who go on to kill have had horrific childhoods at the hands of one or both parents or family networks. Some people will have had other things going on that were protective or have personalities that are less destructive. You can't not talk about the impact of parenting including rationships with the mother but it is more complicated than mum's are to blame especially where there has been multi generational abuse and neglect.

I think it’s more the mothers they were talking about were still supporting these sons despite their clear guilt. Like another example is Chris Watts mother. He’s been found guilty. He confessed. He did it. Rather than disowning him and supporting shananns family Chris watts mum still supports him. She wrote that book blaming shanann and accusing her of driving Chris to it. Honestly that was her own grand babies that he murdered and she hasn’t condemned what he did. It’s honestly disgusting. Same with Scott Petersons mother. She still defends him even though he was found guilty and is so clearly guilty.

Hold on… people are mixing over indulgent mothers and abusive backgrounds together when they are completely different things?

An overindulgent mother spoils her child. That child is probably treated well.

An abusive parent harms their child. That child is probably treated badly.

The two things are not the same.

I think people are referring to children of single parents having a worse outcome and the mother’s being blamed. It is not that simple though. This may be a single parent family because the father was abusive and the mother has protected them from abuse.

The child may lack a strong male role model and act out.

The child might feel unloved by their father. All sorts of things could be going on behind the scenes.

Uou just can’t generalise.

Does it really surprise anyone? Women are blamed for all society’s ills since the myth of Eve.

Personally, I think it is possible to have boundaries, discipline and expectations without ever shouting at your child.

Off topic but agree this podcast has gone completely downhill. In the latest one Hannah sounds like Jeremy Clarkson (not content wise, her inflection).

The mother being discussed in the quote you have referenced offered to help her son bury the body of the woman he murdered and joked about smuggling him knives into prison. I’m not sure it’s a good example for your argument.

Yanbu, see also "I bet your mother is proud" [sarcastically].

Of course bad parenting turns out damaged individuals, and the mother's approach to that situation was undoubtedly a causal factor. Where is the father though? Absent? Alcohol/ drug addicted? Abusive? Neglectful? Indifferent? Equally to blame, whichever way you look at it, unless of course he died. This is such a familiar narrative, in much the same way it's the mother's fault if they turn out lazy sons who don't know how to lift a hoover or cook a meal. What was the male role model doing throughout the first 18 years of their life?

Mothers often need support to be ‘good enough’, especially in the early years. She’s the most significant person in an infant’s world but it’s too much for one person in a nuclear family or sole parent set up: she needs support. And fathers’ impact is massive, just kicks in (& typically overtakes the mum’s, for boys) a little later.

I knew the mother of Russell Bishop- the "Babes in the Wood" murderer. She was a lovely lady, and absolutely devastated by his crimes.

Definitely. Thinking about my childhood neighbours, the daughter is now a respected equestrian trainer, the son is in prison for something really violent and horrible. And they both had the same upbringing

You're missing the point entirely. It's to do with a secure attachment. Growing up in a toxic environment with parents that can't or don't provide that secure attachment causes psychological and neurological harm. It's a proven fact. The majority of serial killers have dysfunctional relationships with their mothers & fathers. So, yes you could say mothers, or fathers are to blame. That's why early help is so massively important, the brain is developing and them early years are crucial. There's absolutely is a connection between the two.

For all his faults ,how was Boris responsible for the Covid Pandemic?
He didnt kill people Covid did!

It's a combination of factors. Biological social, psychodynamic, etc. Not everyone who experiences trauma will go on to behaviour badly, it's a combination of factors that increase the chances. No two people and their circumstances are the same.