To think it’s shocking how bad Britain has fallen apart compared to other European counties

[TheColourofspring]

I am in Spain at the moment in one of the big cities. It’s clean, modern, well maintained. Transport is cheap, food is cheap, healthcare seems to work pretty well (from talking to local). Parks are noticeably well maintained- even saw park keepers! Clean & tidy.

Pensions higher, if you lose your job you get a portion of your salary in unemployment benefits while you look for another and there are no penalties. Based on the premise that if you have paid in, you will get looked after if you are in need.

I am not saying it’s perfect- no country is but it was the same when I was in France last summer.

In Britain, everything is underfunded and close to the edge. Schools, the NHS, local authorities are all at breaking point. My local parks look shabby & there is very little maintenance. Roads have pot holes. Yesterday I read an article about pharmacies being the latest at ‘crisis’ point with major drug shortages (thanks to brexit). Queues at borders, people can’t heat or eat properly, food banks, housing is ridiculous for many people.

I think it’s just so noticeable when you go to other places just how run down Britain is.

Finding it shocking and a bit depressing - like I said, all countries have their issues but I think Britain really has been pillaged by the tories & Brexit really is a disaster.

I do agree workers aren't rewarded adequately for their productivity.
But we cant really compare between now and the 1970's because back then the option of living on benefits as a lifestyle choice rather than working full time didn't exist, so that's bound to have an impact on per capita productivity levels.

Actually, I think it did and was much easier to do than now. I grew up on state benefits in a council house. The only think my dad had to do was sign on every two weeks. My mum wasn't expected to work at all as long as she had a child under 16. My brother was ten years older than me, he had a job, this didn't affect household benefits at all and he wasn't expected to cover the rent. He quit his job because he didn't like it and just went and signed on. You could never live like that now on the benefits system. Also, things like crisis loans and budgeting loans, were grants back then that you didn't have to pay back.

In the 70s being seen as respectable and hard working was something people aspired to -being a shirker, being mentally ill was to be avoided as looked down on or seen as a sort of failure.
Now human rights and not giving a monkeys means anyone might skive off work, pull a sicky, avoid school (the pupils not the teachers) and we are sort of expected to never criticise and/or show sympathy.
Not sure how you fix it.
it could be partly bad leadership -so no appreciation if people do work hard.

I grew up poor in a northern town and call bollocks on this.

How on earth did you get from "human rights" to people are not productive?

Thats astonishingly warped logic because plenty of European countries have "human rights" and are doing well.

I'm sure most European countries are having issues but a recent trip to France showed me that while there may be some systemic issues, things don't look as obviously run-down as in the UK. We travelled around quite a bit and the most obvious difference is the condition of the roads. Didn't see a single pot-hole and the markings are all very clear. Whereas in the UK the roads are in quite a dire state almost everywhere. Lane markings etc are so faded and poor in some places that it's actually dangerous.

Also, the water quality at the beaches is excellent.

Ditto to PP.

Grew up in poor Midlands town and it was well known back then that lots of people we knew were 'off with a bad back' or (genuinely, these are my own family) got pregnant young for a council house.

It seemed much easier back then to shirk off work. Half of my family were on the dole and/or just doing petty crime.

Oh tell me about it, my SIL kept having babies and she and her DH had no job when baby number 4 arrived, then number 5, 6, , then no. 7. They were given a council house knocked through and the benefits they received including free housing/council tax/dentistry/medicines etc etc reached over £80k (a lot in those days - was late 90s/early 00s). I was jealous, but I never went down that path.

I have so many memories of her bunging stuff my way because it was free, even basic stuff such as Capol and paracetamol. Don't pay I'll get it!!! I was grateful of course because we had one DD and were young and struggling. I was part time and DH had a crap job. Her DH laughed out loud about getting a job, why should he have to support all these bloody kids he said. He was a knob.

They were given a lot back then but they broke up and she was cushioned by the state for loads more years, but when the rope tightened by the Tories she went to work and trained up.

Maybe the offspring are now part of the 2 million off work on long term sick??

Well that didn't take long.

The crumbling infrastructure, poor transport links, homeless crisis and struggling schools and hospitals can all be explained by single mothers milking the benefit system. I expect they are to blame for low productivity, inflation and so on as well.

I completely agree with OP. My DS lives in an EU country and is shocked by how bad things are getting here.

As an example, this was the news this morning: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66428191

The UK is still a good country, but the benefits system is a problem for productivity, wages are being suppressed by this, and shock horror, the amount of tax being contributed net is now tiny.

We cannot carry on with basic rates of tax being so tiny. People in the UK are very good at wanting good public services but they do not want to pay the tax for them. All these comparisons are ridiculous because the majority of EU economies pay more in tax than we do. I mean basic tax.

Labour in part created this productivity issue and it should sort it out. This country is screwed unless more people get actually contributing in tax as opposed to taking.

on that - I thought this was interesting - https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/aug/20/earned-income-taxed-more-heavily-than-capital-gains-in-uk-thinktank-finds

@Anxioys I saw this in Denmark when we lived there- higher wages, higher tax, far more covered off in tax. (Cheap childcare, no council tax, councils funded centrally)

People ended up with around the same net income -- but were not paying extortionate childcare or council tax and unless you have social housing (and there's much more of it there- good quality too) rents were lower too. More incentive for women to work too with childcare at around £240 a month full time- so most families were duel income.

In my opinion the UK has created its own issues by a lack of affordable renting, affordable childcare and the necessity for so much UC due to high rents and a disincentive for modestly paid people to work more hours - especially if in private rented in many parts of the country

can all be explained by single mothers milking the benefit system.

Just reminded me that SIL got free baby milk too

@Crikeyalmighty - it also leads to better outcomes for children and women.

Mumsnet is odd. You have women posting on here in defence of part time hours and UC. This is a real problem for the UK, it's keeping people in poverty, mostly. Denmark is a successful society because it has embraced a realistic assessment of what women need to have access to to be in work, as well as raise a family.

The UK needs radical surgery to UC and part time hours. We are literally paying tax to subsidise people not working. Who qualifies for UC and why needs to be looked at again.

@Anxioys I agree totally - and I'm a centre left voter. They Also are I believe allocated a social housing flat in their 20s (I was told this by a Dane ) and you can then do what you want with it if/when your circumstances change - which is good for security long term

The crucial bit also for Denmark:

They do not have the £12.57k tax free exemption for income

Everybody pays in. Lower, middle, upper, pensioner.

That broadens the tax base and makes it possible to fund public services adequately.

The UK is getting poorer because the low, middle, and pensioner cohorts do not pay anywhere near enough tax.

So the 'upper income' tax base is the one that gets hit hardest to subsidise it all. Problem is that due to sickness and demographics, this tax structure had become unsustainable.

There simply is not enough income earners in the top 10% in the UK to subsidise everybody else.

Those folks are fed up and are voting with their feet: either stopping work, working less, or leaving the country.

This all boils down to one truism:

Unless you materially broaden the tax base in the UK, public services will keep deteriorating. The people who keep making excuses for the retired and lower income earners should simply be ignored as they are mathematically illiterate.

Again, the math simply doesnt work anymore in the UK given the existing tax structure.

@TheThinkingGoblin - I agree! This is not a left or right issue in essence because unless the UK recognizes that we need to have more people in work or at least paying more tax, then we are stuffed.

It bothers me greatly that we spend more on pensions than we do on education. That is a society which has lost its way.

I hope whatever government we get starts to tackle these issues. I do not believe it will be addressed during this current one.

@TheThinkingGoblin I agree on that too. The other thing is I think child maintanance should be counted against benefits. I've mentioned before a lady I know (and I do like her) who gets almost £800 a month CM- (2 primary age children) she also gets around£1480 UC and has rent around£600- now I realise she's not exactly walloped but she was clear that it wasn't worth her effort working as she was getting by ok without working. She is perfectly able to do so. Well she's getting by because the rest of us are paying for her decision to do bugger all- again, I'm not a rabid right winger at all - but I think she might feel differently if her maintanance was taken into account and she was suddenly £700 or so a month worse off.

I'm not sure anyone is saying single mothers milking the benefits system are entirely responsible for all the issues you've highlighted... but yes they are a significant contributor toward the ever increasing burden the welfare state is placing on productive, full time working tax payers.

It's just a shame the government has a policy of encouraging and rewarding the most feckless and irresponsible members of society, those who are often barely even capable of looking after themselves, to have children.. all with the aim of trying to boost the completely pointless and meaningless GDP figures.

“It's just a shame the government has a policy of encouraging and rewarding the most feckless and irresponsible members of society”
Indeed it is. The likes of Boris Johnson, Crispin Odey, Michelle Mone…. The bosses of privatised utilities that do not function….
There’s some fecklessness and irresponsibility for you

@TheThinkingGoblin So you want to broaden the tax base to inc or tax more those who already can't afford to live and claim benefits to top up?

The average wage in Denmark is £62k p.a & the average nurses salary is £45k... so lets compare like with like?

So few are net tax payers here in the UK because we encourage low pay, even for skilled work & that inevitably means the tax burden shifts to the higher earners, many of whom (non PAYE) will use their wealth to avoid tax.

@Anxioys While I accept that per capita spend on education is too low, and varies massively between best and worst, the demographics of society today were always going to mean that pensions (among the lowest in Europe, don't forget) are going to absorb more government spending for the next 25 years, until the youngest boomers are "sung to paradise by choirs of angels".

Pay is too low for ordinary workers, and I support the junior doctors strikes and others.

This mornings headline: Top UK CEOs handed 16% pay rise as millions of workers squeezed

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2023/aug/22/top-uk-ceos-handed-pay-rise-as-million-of-workers-squeezed-cma-activision-microsoft-public-borrowing-business-live

Corporate greed and profiteering driven by a culture of making short term gains are a major problem in the UK.