To think it’s shocking how bad Britain has fallen apart compared to other European counties

[TheColourofspring]

I am in Spain at the moment in one of the big cities. It’s clean, modern, well maintained. Transport is cheap, food is cheap, healthcare seems to work pretty well (from talking to local). Parks are noticeably well maintained- even saw park keepers! Clean & tidy.

Pensions higher, if you lose your job you get a portion of your salary in unemployment benefits while you look for another and there are no penalties. Based on the premise that if you have paid in, you will get looked after if you are in need.

I am not saying it’s perfect- no country is but it was the same when I was in France last summer.

In Britain, everything is underfunded and close to the edge. Schools, the NHS, local authorities are all at breaking point. My local parks look shabby & there is very little maintenance. Roads have pot holes. Yesterday I read an article about pharmacies being the latest at ‘crisis’ point with major drug shortages (thanks to brexit). Queues at borders, people can’t heat or eat properly, food banks, housing is ridiculous for many people.

I think it’s just so noticeable when you go to other places just how run down Britain is.

Finding it shocking and a bit depressing - like I said, all countries have their issues but I think Britain really has been pillaged by the tories & Brexit really is a disaster.

Maybe it's time to acknowledge that most people are net takers from the tax system and not contributing. Yet they will claim to be paying a lot of tax. Okay, but not enough to cover your own take.

I would have less issue with taxing assets and wealth if we looked at working tax and part time hours. There are a lot of people who are doing very little work and taking UC and other top ups. That should stop as well as minimum wages being increased.

We have stupid arrangements for the very rich and those claiming universal credit and engaging in part time work. Both are failures.

Countries with big middle classes are prosperous- we are shrinking ours. Both political parties need the middle class vote to win.

Only Labour can address the problems of the very rich and benefits culture anyway, the Conservatives have created this mess and it's what they like. They have had long enough to change it after all.

I wish people would stop bleating on about benefits and pushing down on people in poverty.

If UC is 'too much', go quit your job and try to exist on it!

When I was on it I didn't have enough money for food and I had to get vitamin tablets from the GP.

Most other European countries also have benefits systems, and shock horror they are doing better than us, as is the whole point of this thread.

Honestly, some people won't be happy until there are people starving and on the streets!

Most comparable countries are paying more tax. I would agree with that. I do not agree with the current arrangement for UC and part time work. I have a job because it's much better than being on benefits.

If we have higher tax I am okay with this. I'm even up for an asset tax. But not current UC arrangements. Nor housing benefit.

my biggest problem with the benefits system (its actually the working system) is that people in work needing any sort of benefits at all. Wages should be enough to live on. I think the high cost of housing has a lot to answer for and actually benefits almost nobody. Even those smuggly sitting in expensive, all paid for houses (like me), well, all you have is a house, regardless of how much it's worth, it's no bigger or better than it would be if it was half the price, or twice the price. If i sold it, I'd either have to spend all that money on a new house or have nowhere to live.

I think the biggest thing the government could to to relieve poverty in the UK (and at the same time creating an income stream for itself) is have a massive council house building programme. Make the state the landlord of first resort not last resort.

@Anxioys Not sure you know about current system, because housing benefit is now within UC. It's not even called housing benefit anymore, it's just an element within UC.

Brexit and the Tories. The UK voted for everything to turn to shit.

We made our bed and now we have to lie in it. Every economist in the world said that Brexit was a bad idea. People are thick, I'm sorry. And racist. That's why they voted to leave.

Yep

If UC is 'too much', go quit your job and try to exist on it!

This ^^

We have a government who has made benefits difficult to get and froze the rate for many years and yet there are STILL people saying benefits are too much. I have a severely disabled adult daughter who has no mental capacity, yet ive had to involve my MP to get what she's entitled to.

The biggest problem with the UK is accountability and to get that, we need Governments elected by the majority... we need PR and stop this idea that 43% of the electorate only matter, Bojo got a landslide, yet only got a small extra number of votes over T.May.

On Brexit? just a minority voted for it, 17.2m voters out of the 46m electorate.

No other Western country is "governed" like this.

Most (not all) of part time workers have children or other caring responsibilities.

Childcare is the most expensive in Europe (just like our energy prices) unless this addressed, PT will often be the only choice, cutting UC would only hit the children.

Amazing that folk want to cut the money given to poor people but happy for the UK to have 170 plus billionaires (and 2.4m millionaires) and people like Sunak paying 20% on multi £million earnings.... incredible.

I'm not happy with the situation we have in the UK at either end of society. But I have zero interest in housing benefits being given to private landlords, artificially suppressing wages and the state supporting it. Childcare is expensive. I've paid it myself. But I do not agree with UC and part time working arrangements. It's an utter piss take. I am in favour asset tax. But there is literally no upside to the UK in having UC with HB because it means employers rely on it. They don't pay a decent wage.

I don't dig our cosseting billionaires either. They have non Dom and investment perks that need looking at.

All we have is a growing underclass and a minority of very rich people. Neither have any investment in society whereas we need contributions not takers. If you are on UC you are a taker. End of.

@Anxioys Stopping benefits wont magic up increased wages, wages only went up for the poor and low paid when they unionised and went on strike in the early part of 20thC.

If UC / HB stopped now, employers would pay the same or less if they could, the PT workers might take up FT work (at low hourly rate) but as they couldn't afford Child Care, you'd end up with kids looked after by their 8 or 10yo siblings skipping school once again.

Do you think my MiL carers on UC, working FT, are takers? ones value to society is not always in the hourly rate.

Countries with big middle classes are prosperous- we are shrinking ours. Both political parties need the middle class vote to win.

I think this is a very salient point. I am (ultra) middle class and I think there should be more people like me who are willing and can afford to pay the tax we should on what we earn. We're on the verge of retirement, but we want the business we created from zero to continue. However, it's not quite big enough to sell; we'd like some value money out of 30 years work to retire, so it would be nice to sell it to another company which would build on it alongside their own. Or we hand it over, pretty much free of charge, to our best staff on a promise that they will pay us over time. And hopefully they will, but what if they go down in flames?

The saddest, and most sobering, statistic I have ever read in the 40 years I have been reading about small businesses is: THAT 70% OF ENTREPRENEUR FOUNDED BUSINESSES DO NOT SURVIVE THE FOUNDER'S RETIREMENT OR DEATH. So many good little businesses supporting a few families and paying fair money just vanish. No it will never hit the papers, but it happens in every small industrial estate within a few miles of where you all live.

My argument, directed a bit towards @Alexandra2001 , is that the business DH has built up for 35 years is the big chunk of our pension. I would very much like to hear your party's proposals for nurturing small businesses and helping start up businesses succeed. I would be very keen to hear any ideas that are going to encourage new starts. I am less interested in knowing how you are going to pursue non doms to make up the shortfall. As we all know, the non doms can hop on a plane to remove themselves from any effective tax regime anywhere in the world. They can and they will. So promising to soak them is an empty promise.

Sorry @Alexandra2001 , but you seem to be speaking for the Labour Party here. You may not yet be an official candidate, but perhaps you could shed some light here.

UC claimants are net takers. Like many others they do not earn enough to contribute to give more in tax than they take. That is true for anyone part time on UC; though of course it's true of anyone earning under about £50,000 in the UK.

My objection is that while UC is certainly at a crap rate (notice what people were paid during furlough was proof enough of that), part time working on UC is a choice. I believe that it's an attractive one, because part time working and claiming UC has gone up. I don't mind being told the evidence is that UC actually does mean more people in full time work, because that is what the UK really really needs. If we are daft enough to tax net contributors for part time work ing in our current circumstances then it's crazy. It should stop.

I'm not blind to costs of housing or childcare but PTW on UC is the very opposite of aspiration or contributing. It keeps people right where employers want them, and the state ie us are paying for that. To what end?

And a few changes on assets and financial transactions re tax would go some way to funding infrastructure and repairs we need.

Britain accepts benefits policy and asset strippers paying dividends each year on public utilities or billionaires paying peanuts in capital gains as some sort of inevitable thing. It is not.

Just for the record, the financially sensible course of action is to close the company and sell the assets. That would be the most profitable exit/retirement for us. But then, there are seven families whose principal breadwinners have lost their not minimum wage jobs.

Britain accepts benefits policy and asset strippers paying dividends each year on public utilities or billionaires paying peanuts in capital gains as some sort of inevitable thing. It is not.

And it should not be. But any rules made that are completely black and white to prevent this sort of activity also hit small businesses in a punitive way. I don't think it's the intention, and I hope it's not. Small business is the bedrock of the economy. The garage that services your car. The plumber who turns up on Saturday morning. The machinist who stays a bit later to finish your job so you can get it back to the fisherman in time to catch the next tide. All the mini stuff that allows everyone else to earn their living and get on with their day.

UC claimants are net takers. Like many others they do not earn enough to contribute to give more in tax than they take. That is true for anyone part time on UC; though of course it's true of anyone earning under about £50,000 in the UK.

It’s not just about income tax. It’s about the value of the work itself. Many low-paid workers make a great contribution to the economy.

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2009/dec/14/new-economics-foundation-social-value

For me, one of the best examples is that of a skilled, empathetic childcare worker. By looking after around 3-8 children (depending on their ages) she enables several parents to go to work. She also educates the children during a critical phase in their physical, intellectual, social and emotional development, preparing them for formal education and life-long learning. Also, due to her safeguarding responsibilities, she helps to reduce child abuse and neglect.

When caring for children from deprived families (as part of the universal 15 hours entitlement) this childcare worker won’t always be enabling their parents to work, but can make a particularly big difference to the children’s development and well-being. Without nursery nurses, Reception teachers and TAs would have to spend a lot more time toilet-training children, teaching them basic vocabulary and dealing with behavioural issues, to give just a few examples.

Also, like most low-paid workers, nursery nurses will spend a high percentage of their wages in the local economy. They won’t be able to save huge amounts and certainly not in off-shore bank accounts.

Sadly, I don’t think the Tories can see childcare workers as anything other than net takers, who ought to spend less time training and work harder by caring for even more children (e.g. five two-year-olds instead of four).

And in the spirit of I told you so:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/08/tory-brexiter-george-eustice-visas-young-eu-workers-labour-shortage

I m not sure why you re directing comments at me, the stuff you mention, i have not talked about... i'm also just a ordinary voter, with zero ties to the labour (or any other) party, who are too far to the right for me, i liked McDonnel and Corbyn.

I'll vote to get out Sheryl Murray but i'm more of a Green supporter, though i don't support all of their ideas.

I ve never thought you are a Tory party member or a candidate, you could be any one, no point speculating on why you re on here?

But onto your point on small business... if the company owners employing 7 people decide to retire & no one wants to buy into the business or have children willing to carry on the business, i'm not sure what exactly you want the state to do about it?

I don't know what Labours latest policy on business start-ups is, its not been announced.

As an aside, i ve a good friend who is a CEO of a small company, he is a big Labour supporter and specifically voted for Corbyn, really liked the 2019 Lab party manifesto.....

@EffortlessDesmond
Your small business supports the wages of the staff and your instinct is to protect that and also your hard work and legacy. But free market economics dictates otherwise. Unless it's big enough/profitable enough to sell and or there are available buyers it will not exist. It's the brutal truth of the type of capitalism we have chosen in this country. The workers will find another company or there will be a new company set up .... It's brutally dog eat dog and short termist and it didn't involve any true partnership between private enterprise and the state.
Germany by way of example has a different model you can't incorporate without confirming to certain rules which make corporations much more focused on the longer term and have an element of public good. I don't know if your business is as ltd company, but the principles in Germany set a different expectation. We allow corporations/ ltd companies to exist in the UK with the sole purpose of extracting money for shareholders (and then wonder with low regulation why they behave in such exploitative socially damaging ways- Grenfell/ sewage/dodgy chemo drugs/carillion/the banking crisis....)
And yes of course the state subsidises through UC the painfully low wages of massive corporations because we didn't invest to create industries that can sustain high wages.

Agree! People wonder why there are laissez faire politicians but they are created by this system we have made for ourselves and repeatedly vote for.

The country is a joke. No pay rise for teachers and it comes from school budgets. That is a stupid, greed driven ideological choice. It says two fingers to teachers and children. No other EU country would indulge that kind of drivel.

Countries that screw their education systems are screwing their future. They begin to guarantee that those who do emerge from schools have poor education and thus will struggle to get well paying jobs, for example. You can have your minimum wage and UC. Such a waste. And built in for many.

What I don’t understand is where the money went - we have had austerity for 13 years and it is serious austerity. Also the pension age was raised by a couple of years - however that must mean everyone born after ? 1950 has to wait months/ years longer for their pension. Surely that is several million pension payouts postponed - a nice little earner for the chancellor. No public service pay rises for yonks. Combining benefits so no vast sums in housing benefit now.

is it money borrowed to bail out the banks after 2008 being paid back - plus cost of covid ( though that is recent).

We had a tech bubble in the early 200s - there was money then. But since then nowt.

I feel there has been a lot of taking more than is delivered by the big chiefs in big industries, like power and water. Awarding big rises for paltry improvements has been routine, as long as the shareholder returns have been good. And an awful lot of voting for jobs for my mates. There has been so much of that shit, and the old buffers merry go round, they don't even see it as tarnished, much less corrupt.