Page 18 | To think it’s shocking how bad Britain has fallen apart compared to other European counties

TheColourofspring · 2023-04-14T05:56:04+00:00

I am in Spain at the moment in one of the big cities. It’s clean, modern, well maintained. Transport is cheap, food is cheap, healthcare seems to work pretty well (from talking to local). Parks are noticeably well maintained- even saw park keepers! Clean & tidy. Pensions higher, if you lose your job you get a portion of your salary in unemployment benefits while you look for another and there are no penalties. Based on the premise that if you have paid in, you will get looked after if you are in need. I am not saying it’s perfect- no country is but it was the same when I was in France last summer. In Britain, everything is underfunded and close to the edge. Schools, the NHS, local authorities are all at breaking point. My local parks look shabby & there is very little maintenance. Roads have pot holes. Yesterday I read an article about pharmacies being the latest at ‘crisis’ point with major drug shortages (thanks to brexit). Queues at borders, people can’t heat or eat properly, food banks, housing is ridiculous for many people. I think it’s just so noticeable when you go to other places just how run down Britain is. Finding it shocking and a bit depressing - like I said, all countries have their issues but I think Britain really has been pillaged by the tories & Brexit really is a disaster.

MarshaBradyo · 14/04/2023 20:40

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 20:30

@MarshaBradyo - given that the majority of British people do not even contribute to HMT via income tax, tinkering with these is futile, though I would like to see a lower rate of income tax for workers so that the 20 per cent rate drops to deal with cost of living.

I favour property and asset based tax, including CGT. That needs looking at.

Equally, not impressed by the Tories fixing tax boundaries so all of us, including those who can handle it least, pay more over time.

Just to clarify when you say ‘British people are cheap’ do you mean all of them or just part of it?

So just property owners and asset owners should pay more tax?

MarshaBradyo · 14/04/2023 20:41

Monkeyrules · 14/04/2023 20:28

Basic rate taxpayer 20%, plus national insurance 12% of salary, student loan 9% = 41% tax on income above the personal allowance. Add council tax of approx £2k a year, road tax, VAT of 20% and stamp duty. How much more tax do you want?

I think the idea of being cheap probably doesn’t go down that well tbh!

woodhill · 14/04/2023 20:41

Pluvia · 14/04/2023 20:28

It's the council that decides where to spend the money. My council spends money investing heavily in projects that don't work — like buying up the tiny local airport in a failed bid to make it a regional hub airport when even the larger airport 60 miles away struggles.

The most recent disaster is the development of a performance arena in the city in the hope that major bands and world-class performances will be held. It's so far stolen business from the city's theatre — which is also owned and run by the council... In the last three years they've ploughed millions into a new city-centre road layout: the work has literally taken years and doesn't seem to make any difference to traffic flow.

They've got money going out on these projects, which they could dispose of, but they're not fixing the potholes. This is a Labour council: it's been Labour for as long as I can remember. The Tories aren't the only party that mismanages money.

Tax and spend as my grandad used to say😀

DojaPhat · 14/04/2023 20:44

I think it's because of something uniquely British: the fetishisation of suffering. No one wants anyone else to have anything remotely nice and to ensure it remains so they too are willing to go without. That's why we also keep voting in the same party - if a cohort of tory donors can continue to profit massively from gutting up the country and only them, it leaves the rest of us equally 'happy' that none of us have anything. It's such a weird trait but there we are.

EffortlessDesmond · 14/04/2023 20:44

If you were born in the UK you absolutely have the right to be as critical as you want @LexMitior. To @Florenz, I would like that too but I would not know where to start rejigging it. And there is the problem. There is too much accreted stuff and systems that people are familiar with. They know the ropes. The system should be better, but there would be such a massive nightmare while it took place, nobody sensible could countenance it.

Tekkentime · 14/04/2023 20:46

suburbophobe · 14/04/2023 20:37

one is looking at European universities

@LabradorsByTheSea Tell them to forget about the Netherlands. There's no housing left, even for the locals.

Article about the lack of student accommodation:

Student housing shortage forces students to travel further - DutchNews.nl

Yes I have friends from the netherlands who could no longer afford to live there and so left. It's sad.

PollyPeptide · 14/04/2023 20:48

We did a cruise round Spain last year. I like Spain. But it wasnt that clean - there was litter around. Food prices seemed to be similar to or more expensive than at home. Traffic was awful and it didn't feel that safe. The weather was definitely better!! (although I felt more at home in La Coruna! 🌦 Lol.)
Had a great time, though. Viva Espana. 💃 Olé!

JoanOfMarch · 14/04/2023 20:48

DewinDwl · 14/04/2023 20:03

If you are really desperate there are NHS walk in centres, but you have to wait your turn and can be seen in 15 minutes or 3 hours depending on who else is there as they could have an emergency or it can be empty
I'm glad you are getting such a good service but surely you realise this is not typical of the NHS these days? We don't even have walk in centres where I am, it's the GP or A&E. The idea of being seen within a bracket of between 15 mins to 3 hours, or it being empty, is so laughable I choked on my tea.

@DewinDwl are you in Wales? The NHS is run by Labour isn't it? So sorry that you dont get the same service as England, it must be very frustrating.

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 20:48

When I say "cheap" what I mean is that British people appear to believe that they can retain huge property and assets and pay very little tax on these; that's why the rich do well in this country, it's why they like it here.

And when I say "cheap" I mean that instead of, say thinking about a public service as being as good as, if not better than a private service. Therefore, they will never pay or think about tax which would fund that. And they don't vote for it.

I see it here, people saying but this country has this great public service, and that country, nearly always, has a more equal society, less disparity in incomes, and a higher rate of tax. That's what I mean by cheap. We, as a society, have given up planning for our mutual future.

EffortlessDesmond · 14/04/2023 20:49

Apologies (profusely). I came back to a thread and waded in without reading the newest contributions. My fault entirely.

MarshaBradyo · 14/04/2023 21:12

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 20:48

When I say "cheap" what I mean is that British people appear to believe that they can retain huge property and assets and pay very little tax on these; that's why the rich do well in this country, it's why they like it here.

And when I say "cheap" I mean that instead of, say thinking about a public service as being as good as, if not better than a private service. Therefore, they will never pay or think about tax which would fund that. And they don't vote for it.

I see it here, people saying but this country has this great public service, and that country, nearly always, has a more equal society, less disparity in incomes, and a higher rate of tax. That's what I mean by cheap. We, as a society, have given up planning for our mutual future.

I don’t really agree with cheap etc but how do you tax property?

How much per year are you thinking?

JenniferBooth · 14/04/2023 21:21

It's easier not to work and live on benefits than it is to work in fields or unsociable hours.

Soooooooo how about we change the rules around social housing so tenants are allowed to do jobs that involve living away from home for a long period of time because this is currently not allowed and in breach of tenancy ......oh but wait MNers wont want to cos that would also mean SH tenants would also end up being allowed to live away from the property for other reasons as well as menial work and we cant have that can we!!!

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 21:22

@MarshaBradyo - I'm sure the Labour Party can calculate an annual property tax - but I've after discussed it with Rachael Reeves I will let you know

MarshaBradyo · 14/04/2023 21:25

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 21:22

@MarshaBradyo - I'm sure the Labour Party can calculate an annual property tax - but I've after discussed it with Rachael Reeves I will let you know

But you must have an idea of what you’re after, no need for deflection

I mean I’m thinking of people on my street who have lived here for decades, they earn very little but their house is worth a fair bit.

Do you mean they would need to pay a lump sum a year because they wouldn’t be able to

So do you mean all property owners or just some?

Elvis1956 · 14/04/2023 21:29

What's scary is the fact that most people seem unaware that the the rest of the world is as screwed as us. The BBC really promotes the idea.
Riots in france.
huge taxation in Scandinavia and in Norway if you're an immigrant there's a scandal about social services removing your children for no reason
Greece still paying for the debt crisis
Israel about to get rid of independent judiciary
Brazil restaurants no longer put the price on menus as inflation is running away
South Africa limited electricity in the cities and strikes closed hospitals so even the terminally ill were sent home
German economy is flat lining. Perhaps shrinking in 2023
So please reconsider the doom and gloom

Justanotherlurker · 14/04/2023 21:35

I suppose that is why Spain has one of/ if not the highest unemployment rate in the EU.

If you travel for holiday it is far different to actually living there or doing business work there, if you have actually travelled the world or even the EU you would see that the UK is not the backwater that are trying to paint, we are a small congested island where people laud over EU countries rail infrastructure in one minute and complain about things like HS2 or local housing being built in another.

When people come out with comments like this it really shows that they know nothing about true life in Spain/Germany or anywhere else and are in holiday mode and think the UK is some backwater...

Everyone can cherry pick certain aspects of other countries and want to do the same, it's the uneducated view to just think it is a simple situation to replicate with no trade offs

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 21:35

@MarshaBradyo - you mean pensioners!

The problem is that the UK is becoming a gerentocracy - we are giving our pensions a 12 per cent increase in the state pension this year but not paying our teachers a cost of living rise.

So assets do need be taxed, and controversial as it may be, an annual property tax is not a bad idea. The issue you raise is of course related towards the idea of inheritance; a very British idea that you must inherit, or that property can never be taxed (a recent idea).

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 21:37

@Elvis1956 - it's a good point that we do not see. Israel is very alarming - and it's about a demographic change that we are ignorant of. I hope they keep their original vision. The risk is that they become (ironically) like their neighbours.

MarshaBradyo · 14/04/2023 21:42

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 21:35

@MarshaBradyo - you mean pensioners!

The problem is that the UK is becoming a gerentocracy - we are giving our pensions a 12 per cent increase in the state pension this year but not paying our teachers a cost of living rise.

So assets do need be taxed, and controversial as it may be, an annual property tax is not a bad idea. The issue you raise is of course related towards the idea of inheritance; a very British idea that you must inherit, or that property can never be taxed (a recent idea).

Are you wanting to tax people’s property yearly or when they die? Inheritance tax exists already but it doesn’t disrupt as much. Taxing people each year on a property would just clobber so many pensioners - why do that? They couldn’t pay it.

If it’s yearly then yes pensioners would have to sell up but also many low to mid income who have been here for a few decades and had house price rises but not necessarily income.

It would cause havoc on this street alone, then multiplied out. It would disrupt families, schooling for Dc and communities.

If you want to extract more from people I’d do it without the real heartache of making people leave areas they love.

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 21:52

@MarshaBradyo - I don't expect you to agree with me. But with an ageing population and fewer people working and contributing, then asset and property tax is coming. What is the scope is a genuine question.

Most working people in this country barely contribute income tax and the people who do pay higher rate are not here in sufficient numbers or the rate would have to cripple them to the point you would remove any ambition. We need ambitious people! We need them well educated. We need to pay our teachers. We can't structure our society for the benefit of the old.

MarshaBradyo · 14/04/2023 21:54

LexMitior · 14/04/2023 21:52

@MarshaBradyo - I don't expect you to agree with me. But with an ageing population and fewer people working and contributing, then asset and property tax is coming. What is the scope is a genuine question.

Most working people in this country barely contribute income tax and the people who do pay higher rate are not here in sufficient numbers or the rate would have to cripple them to the point you would remove any ambition. We need ambitious people! We need them well educated. We need to pay our teachers. We can't structure our society for the benefit of the old.

Well we’ll see it has to get voted in.

If it’s for everyone including pensioners meaning people see the heartache of people who have to move because they can’t pay then I’ll doubt it’ll be that welcome.

I can’t imagine being that immune to how it would be in reality, do you know many people who would be hit hard by it?

WarmWinterSun · 14/04/2023 21:55

Youth unemployment rates in Spain are shockingly high, so it is not always roses elsewhere.

Crikeyalmighty · 14/04/2023 21:57

@Simonjt We lived in Copenhagen for 20 months- similar situation- know Stockholm well- lovely place- have you been to Uppsala-? That's lovely too - the differences are stark between the UK and it's mentality thing too- more about the collaborative good

StarDolphins · 14/04/2023 22:01

mellongoose · 14/04/2023 06:59

Depends where you are of course. The media loves a drama and likes to ensure we are in a permanent state of crisis. We're not.

Things work fine here. Other European countries have their own issues to deal with (increased gang violence in Sweden for example).

Life is just life.

Things don’t work fine here though. No dentists, can’t see a Dr unless they ring you or you wait 3 weeks, A&E rammed. Food doubled on many items Services shut, pot holes everywhere, strikes pretty much every week, crime sky high. How is that fine?

it’s not drama caused by the media, it’s what is actually happening.

Jerabilis · 14/04/2023 22:08

There’s been loads of protests in Portugal over wages, pensions and the housing crisis and there have been big protests in Madrid over the state of the healthcare system. The media in the U.K. is terrible at properly covering European news. If you read Spanish and Portuguese newspapers you’ll get a different view.

poverty levels in Spain and Portugal are by most measures higher than the U.K. and youth unemployment rates are shocking. If you get into rural Spain and Portugal you’ll see some pretty extreme levels of poverty.

People who head to tourist spots and then think life’s better there really show a lot of ignorance.