Has the EU's open border policy caused mass migration

[JoanOfMarch]

I was reading about Italy's state of emergency today and it got me thinking does freedom of movement/open borders work?

Europe is facing a huge influx. Schengen allows illegal migration as no one checks to see who is entering/exiting. People gain access to a country and can walk through Europe unfettered and a country has no idea who is living within it's borders.

If there was better protection on a country's border would the problem exist to this extent it is now?

Should the EU step up and take action and close borders, even if it's short term - say for 5 years to try and halt the problem.

Or is it a harmless, tiny pain-in-the-ass problem we all have to live with, but worth it to enable us to access these countries without checks?

YABU - no, open border policy has not caused mass migration
YANBU - yes, open borders are a massive problem and it needs addressing

Let's be clear: political tolerance for unskilled migration is NOT motivated by a deep concern for the wellbeing and happiness of the migrants. Politicians can paint it as such (as they are so kind, so benevolent, so human ) but the truth is, they serve the establishment and the establishment want cheap, uncomplaining labour.

A meaningless word salad.

The simple fact is that producing more than we consume is how we pay for things. Low skilled migration works against that.

The real issue is mass migration from outside the Schengen area and that won't stop until we can find a way to make it more attractive for people to stay in their countries of origin than to come to Europe.

It is countries like Belarus that are literally shipping the migrants in and releasing them on EU's doorstep.

"The simple fact is that producing more than we consume is how we pay for things."

A view that is far too simple. The UK has had a negative balance of payments for the last 20 years - i.e. the country consumes far more than it produces. This deficit runs into billions. Making it far more difficult to trade with the biggest, most standardised market on the planet is hardly going to improve this situation.

I don’t think you know what you are arguing for anymore, but thanks anyway for making my point for me.

The UK has low productivity and a deficit. Leading to weak economic growth. Low skilled migration is disaster under these circumstances.

"The UK has low productivity and a deficit. Leading to weak economic growth. Low skilled migration is disaster under these circumstances."

And yet Germany has taken millions of immigrants and has far better productivity that the UK. Almost 25% of those living in Austria are migrants. The issues facing the UK have little to do with the low-skilled immigrants that seem to again be the scapegoats in the minds of some, and more to do with UK governments (of whatever persuasion) and UK business owners and managers constantly making poor decisions and failing to look at the long-term implications of their hopeless decision-making.

My argument - that the immigration "problem" is largely a strawman being used to distract from the far more serious and fundamental structural and social issues facing the UK. For a while the politicians tried to blame the EU for all of the UK's issues, but as everyone can now see, being in the EU was not the root cause of the UK's problems and leaving the EU did not solve these problems. So now the Conservatives and their foghorns are back to blaming everyone else for their own failings and "immigrants" are the easy target.

I wish that the U.K. would have a vote on ID cards. I've seen first hand what uncontrolled immigration can lead to, similar to what's happening in Sweden.

I've also seen the positives though , so the main issue imo, in the U.K. at least, is controlling who will benefit the U.K. and who will cause endless outgoing costs for generations and balancing how many of each type of immigration end up here.

ID cards would be very very expensive. They will only work (to prevent illegal immigration) if people are made to present them upon demand, very often, and if people found without the correct papers are taken away and dealt with quickly and effectively.
That would also be very expensive.
Our lack of ID cards isn't the real issue - it's our lack of enforcement, and giving everyone a card (at great expense) won't solve that unless we also spend big on enforcement - in which case we won't even need the cards.

Uk will never have actual unified state issued ID cards like other countries

It is a huge problem. The Netherlands is struggling with the huge influx of asylumseekers. Each year exponentially more.

Taxes are already the highest in Europe, even higher than in Sweden. Houses are unavailable and unaffordable for people on average and modal incomes. Violence and no go areas are increasing. Middle class is disappearing.

This is not solely due to migration, it is due to 11 years premier Rutte and agenda 2030. And migration is part of this. And no, this migration does not give us more workers as it costs a fortube in housing, benefits and healthcare and the majority of migrants does not work and dies not contribute to Dutch society. Recent government reports have confirmed this again, so nothing new under the sun.

We are living in a strange world.

@Neededanewuserhandle I do wonder how expensive it's become to manage a portion of the immigrant population that don't end up working though.

Everyone in the U.K. is entitled to register at a GP, all dc are entitled to school places regardless of status. Many areas already have full schools and GPs. Crime goes up in areas with a high immigrant population so you have the extra cost of managing that, court systems become more full.

Illegal immigrants often end up homeless so that has to be managed. Then there's the exploitation of illegal immigrants that doesn't benefit the immigrants themselves.

I'd like to see a report that at least attempts to balance the cost of immigrants that aren't beneficial to the country up against ID cards that may help stop the issue of people working and living here illegally.

@Havanananana hear hear.

Ridiculous post. Europe's outer borders are policed. Open borders within Europe are not the reason for illegal migration from outside the EU.

I once stayed on the border of Croatia and montenegro (pre brexit obviously) and our passports were checked at the border every time we came and went. It was serious, not perfunctory.

When the UK had freedom of movement we acquired a lot of Eastern Europeans which the daily mail etc al didn't like but they kept things like our leisure hospitality and construction industries afloat. We are stuffed now.

The vast majority of migrants do work. You're thinking of asylum-seekers who are forbidden to work lest the xenophobes start banging on about Schrodinger's Refugees simultaneously stealing all the jobs and soaking up all the welfare.

I'm no fan of Rutte either but let's keep our facts straight.

Sounds like NL is now experiencing similar issues the UK faced. Plenty of division. What next? Nexit?

No, I don't think any other EU country would be so utterly dumb as to leave the trading bloc. The latest data show support for membership has never been higher.

Sorry to disappoint the Brexshitters but EU countries watch the UK and guffaw.

You'd need the cards (everyone's) to be being checked regularly and swift action taken if there was any irregularity - does that sound the UK to you? Because it doesn't to me. Our local Police aren't interested in most crimes. You'd have to spend a heck of a lot on enforcement, even if your report showed illegal immigrants were costing a lot. I can't really see how you can get a reliable measure of that since by definition these are people without an official presence.

Yes, NL is quite like the UK in that it is a xenophobic country despite the self-perception of being open and tolerant.

But Nexit? Not a chance. There was a bit of nationalistic chest-thumping in 2016 that Nexit will happen any day now. After the first signs of what leaving the EU actually looks like they shut up pretty quickly.

Brexit aside do we score that badly, I’m not sure. I seen a few posts re people leaving France for here as prejudice can be pretty bad.

My prediction would be that no one will leave the EU in the same way but tensions will rise as mass migration increases. Governments may go further right as citizens vote them in, France, Italy, Sweden I think have started to drift to right.

Where it all goes is fairly unpredictable. A state of emergency in Italy re boats is news now but when climate issues really ramp it up.. I guess we’ll see.

My Asian friend visited Stockholm over Easter. At the start of the walking tour, the guide was asking everybody where they are from. When she said that she was from England, the guide's spontaneous reaction was "Ohhh are you?" but it was not said in an inquisitive or polite way, more like "Oh, I see, one of those who arrived via Calais" tone.

Compared to other Europeans, are a more tolerant people than we give ourselves credit for (even though we are far from perfect). Brexit has screwed us over because it placed a sudden, massive obstruction in the way of market forces finding their equilibrium. It is worse in France (heard it from many immigrants directly).