Has the EU's open border policy caused mass migration

[JoanOfMarch]

I was reading about Italy's state of emergency today and it got me thinking does freedom of movement/open borders work?

Europe is facing a huge influx. Schengen allows illegal migration as no one checks to see who is entering/exiting. People gain access to a country and can walk through Europe unfettered and a country has no idea who is living within it's borders.

If there was better protection on a country's border would the problem exist to this extent it is now?

Should the EU step up and take action and close borders, even if it's short term - say for 5 years to try and halt the problem.

Or is it a harmless, tiny pain-in-the-ass problem we all have to live with, but worth it to enable us to access these countries without checks?

YABU - no, open border policy has not caused mass migration
YANBU - yes, open borders are a massive problem and it needs addressing

That was due to how the U.K. handled the logistics and documentation of the freedom of movement of workers/retirees/family members from other EU countries(we were never in Schengen). We could have handled it the same way as other EU countries did/do by having resident cards, or requiring registration with local government offices; but we chose not to. So it’s wrong to say they have the same problem we did, just like it was wrong during the referendum to claim the EU dictated how we handled it. We always had control over our borders.

Climate change and war are the causes of mass migration.

We need a lot more global co-operation if we're going to nip it in the bud - and this is 'in the bud', things are only going to get worse without treatment.

I don't foresee it happening in my lifetime, sadly.

Of course it doesn't work. It will only ever, in the vast majority of cases, work one way round .... that is, as we see in the UK, people choosing to go to countries with poor records of deportation/no checking of visas/status etc. It's a tragedy. There have to be rules. When I have gone to live and work in other countries I have had to follow very strict guidelines - have a job offer to go to, take a medical, pay for medical insurance, have enough funds to tide me over, no criminal record, etc etc. Great - just what I, as a UK taxpayer, would like for those coming to live and work in my country too. Anyone welcome, as long as they fulfil this kind of criteria (excepting of course genuine refugees, who are a tiny minority of those coming here).

Ok, I’ll bite (assuming you’re a journalist for the ilk of #dontbuytheSun or Daily Heil, judging by the goady questions.).

Firstly, no, the arriving refugees cannot “walk freely into any country of their desire until they decide to settle in the best one.” As arrivals with, presumably, no valid EU visa or passport, they will have to stay where they arrive. I am excluding of course any illegal movement out of the country.

Even those living within the EU Schengen area as residents, but not holding EU ID/passport, cannot freely travel and move to another EU country. I’m a resident of a country within the EU, but not an EU national. I have residency in my home country, but am still subject to the Schengen rules once I leave and enter another country within the zone. In addition, many EU countries, of which Italy is one, require one to register with a local commune in order to gain residency and access healthcare etc. I am registered with a certain town hall; if I move to another region within the same country, I am required to advise of my change of address and register with a new commune.

These new arrivals in Italy will be held in hostels or camps. They won’t be given benefits (visit any beach in Italy in summer to see how these people will earn some cash). They won’t be able to legally leave and move on to the next country they fancy, unless they’re provided with valid documentation.

This situation in Italy, btw, happens every year. As soon as the weather improves, the boats sail, Lampedusa receives an influx of arrivals and Italy declares a state of emergency to unlock the EU funds that it needs in order to cope.

The UK has no clue how many people there are in the country at all, regardless of where in the world they come from, be that Eastern Europe, the former colonies, Viet Nam, Brazil or anywhere else.

This is because unlike many other countries, the UK has no ID cards, no mandatory registration, very weak enforcement of employment and housing laws, and wile in the EU the UK chose not to enforce the EU-wide rules about allowing people 3 months in which to find work before requiring them to leave. The UK has even managed to "lose" hundreds of vulnerable children who have recently arrived as asylum seekers and as far as the authorities are concerned have simply vanished despite being legally and physically in the care of the UK authorities.

For the sake of clarity, I am not advocating ID cards, registration etc - I merely point out one of the consequences of not having these measures.

This is what people don't get, @Havanananana, either now or before they voted for the biggest act of economic self-harm available. The UK has chosen extremely porous borders. We didn't implement the EU rules available to us while were in, we still don't implement them now.

I think the reasons for this are many, including laziness but extending to the fact that we're dependent on dirty money.

Exactly. We’ve always had control over our borders and it’s our own decisions that have resulted in the consequences of undocumented people living here. The Leave campaign hoodwinked the public by blaming it on the EU freedom of movement when it was nothing to do with it. I agree alot of dirty money is tied up in this, I think it forms the foundation of our issues with modern slavery in this country.

Exactly. I have a really hard time explaining to EU national friends and family that there is no concept of ‘residency’ in the UK (other than for tax reasons). Once one is in, one can move freely around without needing to declare.

Personally speaking, I’d be more than happy to have an ID card. I can’t see that it’s any different to my driving license, tbh. Within the EU, ID cards are accepted as valid travel documents, making it much cheaper for people to travel (unless going to the UK, hence the collapse of the school trips market).

I'm in favour of ID cards, actually. They should be issued free of charge as soon as you get an NI number, and updated every ten years or less. Temporary residents should get a temporary card. IT systems need more efficient integration. I can't see how on earth this would impair our personal freedom.

Or are you just worried OP that all those migrants might come to the UK eventually because they've managed to reach France with such "ease"?

Every boarder except the one on the island of Ireland which has caused a whole new set of problems

That’s a good point. The ROI-U.K. border in Ireland is a huge problem. For that reason alone we should never have left the EU, as the Good Friday Agreement is now shamefully at risk.

This was an interesting thread until it degenerated into the usual Brexit bashing.

I used to live in France and believe me, there were quite a lot of undocumented migrants , mainly in the cities where it is easier to live below the radar, but also sleeping in the ‘Traveller sites’ (gens de voyage) which the communes are obliged to provide, and even sleeping rough in fields and woods. There was a major problem in Normandy one year because the crops were being stolen from the fields by people sleeping rough in the caves along the coastline. These were not documented migrants who had been checked through a Schengen zone as described by some pp, having been intercepted on arrival and ‘processed’. Once you are in, you are below the threshold of control.

The borders between many of the Schengen zone countries are quite porous. The situation with The EU and British passport holders is completely irrelevant, that is the EU ( with the exception of Portugal , I gather) punitive interpretation because they are angry at the withdrawal of the British financial contribution. As someone else has said, you can walk over the border between many countries, they are not policed or even marked on the ground . I myself have sat in a train between Belgium and France which traversed the border without even stopping. No passport check.

I don’t think no borders is thé attraction to migrants, that is driven by over population , economic stagnation and frequently political corruption. Once within Europe , however, the laxity of the borders makes it easier for the internal movement of people who are not in employment or integrated into the host society.

Our own situation is a similar mess, the refusal to control immigration, to prioritise prospective immigrants by the needs of the host country, or to deport the less savoury arrivals, supported vociferously by the chattering classes , has been happening for decades.

Me three. I think we might slowly evolve that way via the voter ID cards coming in. They have had them in NI for years. Once we have voter IDs, it’s a short hop to making them into resident IDs. All legal immigrants with no voting rights already have ID cards in the U.K.

The borders between many of the Schengen zone countries are quite porous

You don't say. Almost as if that's the whole point of Schengen.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen
It’s not Brexit bashing to inform the OP that the EU Shengen “open borders” is not a cause of undocumented migrants in say France vs Spain vs Italy. Just like Brexit isn’t the cause of undocumented migrants in say England vs Wales vs Scotland.

It’s not Brexit bashing to point out that the Leave campaign lied to the populace when they said that the EU Shengen “open borders” was the cause of undocumented migrants within the U.K. either.

Its setting the record straight.

The UK has no clue how many people there are in the country at all, regardless of where in the world they come from, be that Eastern Europe, the former colonies, Viet Nam, Brazil or anywhere else.

Agree. Due to the lack of ID cards and integrated IT systems, it is relatively easy to live and work illegally in the UK. But let's be honest - someone is profiting from this army of illegal migrants. Cash in hand, no NI or pension contributions, no employment protections. This situation lasts because it benefits some people.

In many EU countries life without ID cards or an equivalent is difficult - no bank account, no job, no medical attention, no access to renting or housing. If an illegal migrant crossed the border to another country they would be caught out as soon as they tried to do any of the above. So I don't think Schengen is a factor in attracting illegal migration.

Asylum seekers are of course a completely different issue. Which is no going to get better any time soon.

The intention of open borders was to provide a supply of labour from Mediterranean European countries to industrialised Northern European countries. And trade of goods made in the north to markets the south. Current African migration is a side effect. The EU largely operates in the interests of German and French economies. UK has a similar economy and could have exploit the same policies but it’s stupidity and stubbornness, and obsession with WW2, would rather cut of its nose to spite its face than ‘get into bed with the “frogs/krauts”’.

The estimates were just over 3mil and numbers seem to be 3.9 mil so that's not THAT massive number difference tbh.

Agree with others, IDs would help with everything here. Big fan, got mine in EU country.

Climate change and war are the causes of mass migration.

And also some countries just being a bit crap!

I feel sorry for most of them. They risk their lives coming to Europe, end up doing the crappest, low paid jobs. They have to live in an expensive city on that low wage and still send money home to their families. Yet many countries in Africa have the potential to be wealthy if their governments weren't so corrupt.

It's a good thing if people can migrate for a better life - not so good if they have to.

That looks difficult all round. It’s going to get even more pronounced and it will put strain on Italy. Politics will likely shift as citizens feel pressure,

Re borders, it’s maybe a factor as you have support when you get there to choose a country as put in pp

Only really tough measures stop people trying

That's conflating several things together.

The free movement is inside the Schengen area and has some conditions.
Illegal immigration is a different issue because they are crossing the outside Schengen border.
Legal migration can be an issue as well, because international agreements we all signed are very naïve and technically entittle about a quarter of the world population to claim asylum.

Crisis in Italy actually shows, that the imigrants coming there mostly stay there and don't wander en mass around the EU (the law say that they can claim asylum in the first safe country, so they can't just turn up anywhere and expect benefits and so on, unless the country decides to do it).

Afaik the Northern European countries are generally trying to attract immigration population (originally from rest of EU, for example Denmark's free universities teaching in English) and were overly optimistic about ease of integration of people from third countries.

Yes, I agree, and also feel sorry for them (traffickers & other criminals excepted).

The kind of global response I had in mind would be a collaborative effort by all the territories migrants want to go to, aimed at making their lives at home more tolerable. This would have to be a massive economic, diplomatic, technological and sometimes military intervention.

I can't see it happening due to conflicting agendas, China's current "buy Africa" programme, Russia still having fingers in the pie, and those corrupt leaders being bloody clever. It needs to happen or, at some point, an actual mass migration of starving people will occur and it won't be pretty. I'm not holding my breath, though.

I agree with everything you say there Garlic.

A wise person said you cannot have open borders and a welfare system and ‘free’ medical treatment. There some 1 billion people, India etc. how many do you want here?