To be sick and tired of neurodivergence being the exchse

[Easterbunny23]

My DS8 is suspected ASD/ADHD.

He is so defiant and oppositional, has been since he was a pre schooler. He has to be carefully managed at school and at home these holidays he’s been a nightmare unless we’ve been out doing fun things constantly.

He winds his little brothers up constantly. He takes forever to do anything we ask him to do if it means stopping something he’s doing. He’s rude, calls us names like “meanie”, he’s rude to grandparents, telling them he doesn’t want to come to their house with no regard for their feelings.

He can be so mature and kind, he sometimes apologises off his own back for not listening/being tricky/moaning.

It’s clear he is ND although we don’t know his exact diagnoses yet.

But I am just sick of his awful behaviour. He’s so grumpy and sullen and tries to spoil things his brothers enjoy.

I am at a loss of how to discipline him. Currently reading lots of different books - 10 Steps to a less defiant child, emotional support for your ADHD child, that sort of thing. No answers yet unfortunately.

I feel your pain, we have the same, I just have to keep reminding myself that my child is ND. However it’s bloody hard! Bloody bloody hard!

It's really hard with an ADHD child to not be completely 'at them' all the time. And the risk is that you become just another noise in their demanding environment.
There are no easy answers.
Start with evaluating how many different demands they're having to deal with and reduce this as much as possible.
Work out what's the priority and plan a consistent way to approach it.
Ignore some stuff.
Give lots of positive interaction. Lots.
Listen to what he's telling you, not how he's doing it.
Model the behaviors you'd like to see.

It is not an excuse, it is the reason.

It is very hard parenting a child who is ND, but it is not right IMO to refer to that as an excuse.

I think one thing you could do - if you have help - is to spend time with the kids apart so the other children can relax and have some fun without their brother impacting them?

Is it the reason though? What is the logic of ASD/ADHD being the reason for being so rude to his grandparents and siblings? He is calculatingly rude, says unkind things he doesn’t even mean to get a reaction, it’s not that he’s just blunt in the way you’d appreciate an ASD child might be.

I just don’t feel I can ignore rude or unkind behaviour. He went to his first drop off party recently and was so rude to the birthday child during the happy birthday singing. I gave him a big telling off when he got home and made him apologise. What kind of parent would I be if I let that slide, ND or not?

If he's being mean to get a reaction it could be that he's desperate for attention/interaction.
Obviously you can't let that slide, but is he getting lots of positive interaction in the way that he needs it?
Behaviour is communication. What works for other kids might not work for him, but he's not yet able to verbalise this yet, so he plays up.

I have been recommended this book which may help in your overall understanding and style of parenting. Gabor is a doctor and has ADHD.

I don’t think it excuses all of it you’re right. Plenty of kids with ADHD aren’t rude or defiant.

It's an explanation not an excuse. Op one of mine is a combo asd/adhd and is very hard to manage. We have very clear family rules and consequences.
I do lots social stories to show appropriate behaviour. Though he does like to say mean crap to get a reaction

As a TA, I have found that using a really slow, low pitched voice helps much more to discipline. Our first instinct is to shout STOP! But it just doesn't work. In school, we have what is called error free education. The goals are really, really small and something they can definitely achieve.
Then you praise and give them a dopamine hit which helps them feel good and repeat good behaviour. But it is a really slow process, which could be frustrating as a parent.

I have a friend who swears by giving her DS (ADHD diagnosis) sugary espresso drinks. The mild stimulant apparently helps him a lot.

I think you need to read up on how to guide a ND child socially. Discipline that works on a neurotypical child like telling them off and forcing apologies does not work. I’ve found things like role play and chatting over scenarios and generating scripts has worked well with my DC. They do not know what they are supposed to say and do, and because they are ND they most often choose poorly and hurt feelings. They then don’t understand what was wrong and so often refuse to apologise because to them that means admitting they intended to hurt or harm, when they didn’t intend to.

So going over what you should do and explaining it’s polite to say sorry even if you hurt someone unintentially…repeating to them these are the social rules in clear terms they can understand helps. With a ND child there is not one social rule they can figure out or pick up like a NT child, they have to be taught gently and with scenarios and examples.

Read about self regulation and dopamine seeking.

Caffeinated drinks work in the same way stimulants do for ADHD people. They calm rather than hype up.
we often let my daughter have coke if she needs an extra boost of calming!

Yes, or tea. Ds loved making the brews when he was younger. Still does 😁
No sugar though.

Is it the reason though? What is the logic of ASD/ADHD being the reason for being so rude to his grandparents and siblings?

Logic could be that he is struggling to regulate his own emotions and feelings and is lashing out. He also may be saying things that he know will hurt but struggle to understand the impact from other's perspectives. The difficulty with dealing with ND children is that they are all different and need to be managed as such. You know your child best and what triggers him.

As a PP said think about the amount of demands that are placed upon him and decide what the really important ones are and where you draw the line. Make the behaviours that are a hard no clear and with regular reminders and make sure he knows what the consequences will be and keep it consistent. Pick up on and praise even the little things he does. He may need to be reminded before parties about the expectations. Good luck, getting the balance right it so tough.

Bit of he has ASC then he will be blunt, not rude. I work with children with autism and they say it how it is. He will not be able to filter if he's bored At Grandma's for eg.

ODD is a separate disorder (which often presents alongside ADHD and autism). Therapy and CBT is recommended. https://psychcentral.com/disorders/oppositional-defiant-disorder-treatment

@Runninouttatime I was interested to read this book until I read reviews saying he thinks ADHD is not a neurological/genetic disorder but is caused by childhood trauma and can therefore be 'healed'. To me this harks back to the 50s when mothers of autistic children were blamed for their child's condition because they were 'cold'.

'The kids survival guide to ADHD' has been helpful for my child (and us) as had specialist education, out of school support and one-to-one sessions for my child on ADHD.

It's hard work OP. Relentless positivity, clear boundaries, discussing what's acceptable and reflecting on behaviour constantly.

It’s a very delicate subject and I’ve not read this book but a lot of issues like ADHD are due to childhood trauma.

There is also evidence that trauma can be passed on genetically so if your parents suffered trauma, they could actually pass this on to their children.

An parent with ND is also likely to have a child with ND too even if there is no trauma.

The majority of people in prison or on the streets are there because they’re ND and we’re expected to live in a NT world and their behaviour was put down as bad behaviour instead of having the support of someone who can help them.

I think once someone has had childhood trauma and their brains have developed then I can’t see how that can be reversed.

It is also a slippery slope as not every parent who has a child with ND are abusive or lazy (my own DD has autism but not much childhood trauma apart from no dad and I have autism but I did have a lot of childhood trauma).

I completely agree with you OP that ND should not be an excuse for bad behaviour or rudeness.
I work with SEND students and rudeness is absolutely not ok.
But your child will think differently than your NT child and like all children regardless of ND or not, you have to find a way to parent them that suits them best.

Agree with all this.

Children may be born with the genes but the extent to which the traits are displayed is impacted by their environment. For instance there’s a strong link between screen time and ADHD symptoms in boys. We probably wouldn’t think of 2-3hrs of TV a day as being “trauma” but it all impacts.

Thanks all. It's so so hard. I do all of the chatting/explaining social situations. He is open to these conversations most of the time. He can get defensive or lies to try and say it wasn't how it happened etc but this is where I feel like his behaviour truly is vile - he DOES get it. After he was rude to Grandma I gave him a hypothetical example using him and his friends to ask how he would feel and he knew that it was hurtful.

@Hankunamatata sorry to hear you have similar struggles. What consequences do you use? I try to use natural, so if he was rude to someone, I talk through why is was rude, why it's not ok, how it might've made that person feel, and then once he understands he has to apologise.

@L3ThirtySeven yes I do lots of that - giving him things he could say, telling him it's fine to feel the way he feels (eg grandma's house is boring) but it's not ok to say it to her, it's ok to say to mummy and daddy privately, same with gifts etc - we should always thank someone for a gift, but if he doesn't like it then it's ok to say this to just mummy and daddy later on when the person isn't there. He still chooses to be rude there and then.

I don't particularly like the trauma theories either. DH has ADHD so it's clearly genetic (there's ND on both sides of his family too).

He can get defensive or lies to try and say it wasn't how it happened etc but this is where I feel like his behaviour truly is vile - he DOES get it. After he was rude to Grandma I gave him a hypothetical example using him and his friends to ask how he would feel and he knew that it was hurtful.

DS is the same. It's like he has difficulty making the connection between him not liking something and other people feeling the same way. Yet he can show empathy at other times. It can be infuriating.

Have you explored the pda profile and the pandas approach? That’s been the most helpful here. Some neurodivergent people can experience praise as a demand.

It’s a fine balancing act. I have two kids with asd and adhd. One doesn’t speak but the other can be blunt without thinking. We’re teaching her that she shouldn’t say some things because she has to at some point go out into the world.

I have a friend who has three kids and I’ve watched her not parent any of them. She liked that they were free spirits. The youngest is the only one at the moment diagnosed as autistic (diagnosed in high school) but when she was young, her and my daughter when to the same pre-school. She slapped my daughter in the face as she got to the door first. Her mum saw it and said nothing.

Yes you do need to make allowances for ND people. If places are loud, environmental demands and burn out but you still have to parent them. My youngest is profoundly autistic but we are still teaching her not to hit. It’s not an excuse to not parent.