What would a man do?

[StepIntoMyOffice]

I've read so many threads recently where someone has responded with...

'Do you think a man would care in your position?'

'A man wouldn't think twice in this situation so why are you?'

What would your male colleague/DH do?

Why is it even relevant? AIBU to think that women don't need to concern themselves with what a man would do if it were their dilemma? Why the constant need to compare?

Because men, a lot of the time, simply don't give a shit and they don't feel guilty about not feeling a shit either.

Men do what’s best for them, women - very particularly mothers - often do what’s best for others.

Men worry vastly less about what other people think.

Men overplay rather than underplay their achievements, they take credit where they can

Men don’t second guess themselves nearly as much, or beat themselves up for mistakes, or feel they constantly have to go the extra mile, or allow their voices to be silenced or their confidence to be crushed by criticism.

Men ask for more money and promotions at work, rather than wait to be recognised. They take more risks.

Women often wait for recognition -
men ask to be recognised

See, this is the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Do you not see the irony in mocking a man for 'explaining the female experience to us' when in the very post before you confidently explained the male experience without a moment of self introspection?

This is the problem with class analysis IMO. It's a useful tool at times, but too many people think they can explain the world through absolutes and through 'male' and 'female'. It's also often the case that other important demographics apart from sex are ignored, which is how we reach the odd stage where a gay/black male is somehow culpable for a homophobic/racist attack on his person by virtue of being a male and thus collectively responsible for male violence. He becomes simultaneously the victim and a peer of the perpetrator.

When you start talking about 'men' as some homogenous group my first thought is 'which men?'

She’s extremely proud, thank you.

In this situation 'what would a man do?' The answer would be get baking he loves baking and is pretty good at it. Also did some sewing for the girls.

What would a man do?
Depends which man, just like women they come in all shapes, sizes and attitudes.
In our case...
Generally if he thought I was the best person to deal with it he'd pass the problem to me, if he thought he could deal with it he would, if he thought it wasn't important he'd probably ignore it.

It's not about comparing, it's about the way women hold themselves back by not "doing what a man would do".

Which is absolutely fine if that's how they want to live but the response is usually made after a woman has been wondering why the men at work/home have a different, easier or more successful life.

Wow. Mansplainer and “quotation mark fan” completely missing the point of the thread… 🙄

@RH1234 I don't understand why you are getting a hard time here and THAT was the point of this thread. It seems criminal to be a man these days (just to be clear, I'm a woman, wife and mother). Men can't say ANYTHING without being accused of something. Someone said that there is a victim mentality associated with feminism and I completely agree. Feminism used to be about equality, now it seems to be about one-upmanship over men.

I never 'think like a man' as I'm not a man and don't aspire to be one. I also never think like Linda round the corner or my Aunty Betty because I'm not them either. I have my own mind and deal with things how I see fit, not how George from accounting would have.

If people aren't happy with themselves and the way they handle confrontation (or any other situation) then they'd be better working on themselves than blaming 'men'.

I'm confused now as to the thrust of your argument OP. I assumed from your first post you were suggesting women see acting like a man as aspirational (and shouldn't), yet now you're saying that women think men can do nothing right. So, is your point that women are wrong to use men as role models, or that they're wrong to be critical of male behaviour?

Totally agree BUT I'm the classic 'please would you' email writer and I will never change.

Hiya!

Short line about weather or current event.

Could I ask you to kindly xxxxx, it's because xxxxx. Bit of background, xxxxx.

Thanks so much!

Cheers, MZ

Most of my colleagues respond in kind but the senior males bark out weird emails that sound as if they've just shouted into an automatic typewriter. Personally it find it rude and it makes me think less of them both as people, and as professionals.

I know that my way is the 'womans' way but it's also the decent, pleasant human being way so I won't be sending snappy emails just to fk the patriarchy.

Sunny at last! Have a good one.

Cheers

You appear to be fond of the ellipsis, also.

I agree with this.
I'm fortunate enough to work in an environment where the stereotypical 'feminine' traits of support, collaboration and consideration are highly valued. Any flexing, grandstanding and self aggrandising would be seen through and rejected pretty swiftly.
Any behaviours designated as 'male' that are remotely useful or positive, I display anyway. Others, such as pretending I'm more competent than I am to land a job I can't do; using aggressive language or behaviour to coerce colleagues into facilitating me; riding on the back of others to success, I'd personally not aspire to.
I appreciate that women working in masculine environments have to play the game by the rules, but a world where women behave like (stereotypical) men isn't really my utopia.

I think what you're saying is women or people in general shouldn't have to look to men (or any group) for validation or ideas

Example...school asks for volunteers to bake cakes for their raffle. You don't want to do it
Response - is your OH baking cakes? Doubt it.

The answer could easily said No is a complete sentence.
By comparing your behaviour to a man's is implies be like a man when actually the message is be assertive/don't be a door mat.
It also implies you need to check it's permisable/desirable by running it by 'mens behaviours'. Whilst the sentiment is there is actually stereotyping women as doormats. Everytime we say 'women always put others first' it could civertly imply 'you put yourself first so you're not really womanly'
If that's your point OP I think it has been missed

What does 'thinking like a man' even mean? It sounds a bit like 'living as a woman'.

It either doesn't mean anything or means whatever you want it to mean.

So much talk of what feminism apparently is and what shouldn't be about, but maybe tell us, what feminism should be about, in your opinion @StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar ?

And what is a strong woman?

Well, it's easier to say what it shouldn't be about as there are a fair few different brands of feminism which are often quite disparate - e.g. GC feminists vs liberal.

I think as a baseline it should in some way be making things better for women, or at least trying, rather than just focusing on constant negativity like so many seem to.

And a strong woman? Well, they could be strong in many ways but when I think of a strong woman I don't really think of somebody who gets overwhelmed over things they read online to the point of struggling in day to day life. I mean, there was a poster a few weeks back trying to suggest that life in modern Britain was comparable to the oppression women face in Afghanistan. That's just bonkers and clearly somebody unaware of their relative privilege.

It's hard because some of the things discussed are genuine issues. It's just that I get the impression from some posters that it's the moaning they're here for rather than the end goal of solving the actual problem. A bit like Marla in Fight Club attending all the support groups when she isn't actually ill. 😂

For me, having seen many men do the minimum and always put themselves first, I think this approach to life has become more common, in part for women to protect themselves.

Women, imo, don't have it all but pretty much still 'do it all' or are expected to. We still see many men putting themselves first, getting lots of praise for doing the most basic and everyday things, whilst there seems to be more expected of women and if they say 'no' or question they are 'awkward' or not a team player.

I don't think women necessarily think 'what would a man do' but they are thinking 'I'm putting myself and my children first' , I'm saying 'no'. This behaviour is closer, imo, to what men do and what society expects from men therefore this somehow equates to women getting more like men.

Men unfortunately have failed to keep pace with societal changes and women having equality. They don't like their 'loss of control' so shout and throw their toys out if the pram and claim 'I can't say anything now'.

So, we're not thinking 'what would a man do' were thinking what's best and the right choice for me and my children.

Feminism used to be about equality, now it seems to be about one-upmanship over men.

It's about neither. It's about freeing women from the oppression of the patriarchy.

But since you don't want to hear any negativity, neatly one can't talk about the patriarchy. So feminism is obsolete. Meanwhile we have a misogynist rape culture in the police, who are supposed to investigate rape. Just one example.

For me, having seen many men do the minimum and always put themselves first, I think this approach to life has become more common, in part for women to protect themselves.

I think it's not so much 'the minimum' as having different priorities. OH wouldn't be bothered if the hoovering was only once a year, its not important to him. It was brought home to me when I was doing housework and he had the girls and asked if I was going to do cleaning or come to the park with them (wasn't planned, he just saw a nice day and decided that he'd take them to the park). We left the house messy and had a nice picnic with the children.

Perhaps if we're being more like the men then first thing is focus on the important things. Don't spend too much time worrying about stuff that you can let go.

Mmm. I'm not sure about the framing of men as somehow superior because they don't get caught up in domestic minutiae. (After all, someone has to hoover, don't they? Did HE do it when you got back, or was it left for you to do later?)
Do they really focus 'on the important things' or just the things important to them?
A man who doesn't care about hoovering might well take his children to the park instead. But would he take them instead of an optional work event? Or doing his hobby? Or when England were playing?

I think a lot of threads asking the "what woukd a man do?" question aren't saying a man's approach would be better but rather trying to flag that whatever is that the woman is worrying about, might just be another example of misogyny at work.

As pp have pointed out... the guilt tripping messages re PTA volunteering etc aren't even going to the men as a rule. So asking the "what would a man do" question immediately reframes the whole situation. I no longer do anything with or for the PTA. Not because of the feminism issue but as I started to feel liberated by being able to ignore the endless messages, I had this epiphany that this was just another thing that inhad been taking on while dh just didn't care.

@stepaway there are a few problems with your analysis re the benefit of being a woman when you are financially supported by a man. For a start, the SAHMs like the ones you talk about are usually absolutely clear on how roles and responsibilities work and see their privilege. I know a fair number of women in that situation. However, far more are not living these super comfortable lives of lunches and childcare but instead doing everything, often with little or no control or autonomy re finances and/or often being penalised in terms of expected effort/spending etc.

Also, like my point above, the "what would a man do? question is for specific situations. Dh was a sahd for a while and in fact, when he was agonising about spending money on a lunch out (which we totally could afford), I would tell him to ask what would a woman (in our financial and emotional situation) do? Because he found it quite hard to see the childcare as an equal contribution and as a feminist woman, that made me cross. I could not do the job I was doing at the time if I had also been more responsible for childcare etc.

I think broadly speaking most men work for money. Women do too but there's also a much bigger element of self validation IME.

I think financial independence isn't a bad thing but on the flipside we're gradually losing the element of choice as two salaries becomes the norm and is often required to get a mortgage, for example.

I'd love to not have to work and if I found a way to do this that worked for my family I wouldn't waste a second thinking about principles or any of that nonsense as I'm not some ambassador for women. What other women choose to do isn't my concern and I don't owe them anything, certainly not on account of my sex. Family will always come before strangers or literary theories/ideologies for most of us.

I find it odd how so many women have this illusion of the sisterhood. It just doesn't exist for the most part and generally women will do what works best for them and their family. I feel like this is why so many women are ruthlessly ambitious in their 20s and then happily throw it to one side once they have children and a financially successful husband.

It’s a useful way to recognise when you’re placing undue pressure on yourself (or someone else) due to society’s gendered expectations. It gives a new perspective to think ‘a man wouldn’t be expected to do this, so why am I?’