What would a man do?

[StepIntoMyOffice]

I've read so many threads recently where someone has responded with...

'Do you think a man would care in your position?'

'A man wouldn't think twice in this situation so why are you?'

What would your male colleague/DH do?

Why is it even relevant? AIBU to think that women don't need to concern themselves with what a man would do if it were their dilemma? Why the constant need to compare?

Picking out one way in which women could be seen to have it easier amongst the myriad ways they definitely don't could be considered the epitome of being selective, but ok 😆

And that's before we consider who's doing the housework in those families, the childcare, the life admin, the unpaid labour. And that's also before we consider that those couples have surely discussed and agreed on that setup, whereas women are often at a disadvantage through no fault or agreement of their own (e.g. gender pay gap).

There is plenty of evidence of sexism in society.

I work full time too. Wouldn't have it any other way as I love my job. What I'd like even more is to be able to do that knowing I had a partner who worked part time, and on their days off cleaned my house, did my laundry, the shopping, remembered my Auntie Maud's birthday and cooked my tea. So pretty much ALL I had to do was my job. (And maybe put the bin out if I remembered.)

This with bells on.

Somehow you know that as soon as someone trots out that their child's father is "an amazing dad" he'll be a phone in the park type.

Women are shit parents if they go away overnight without their children, men are amazing dads if they remember that they have children for long enough to buy them a generic present on the way home.

I do think it should be more the other way around where parenting is concerned - fathers should be held to the same standards as mothers.

I'd probs feel the same if I were the man working 80 hours a week.

Despite agreeing with many elements of feminism, the 'privilege of working' bit just seems like bullshit to me tbh.

Yes, relying on a man leaves you vulnerable etc but if you weren't likely to be a high flyer then it's a pretty cushy life marrying a successful man. It's also something that usually can't be done in reverse by a stunningly handsome 'himbo' because women don't seem to like supporting men in chilling at home.

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar

I'm not sure how we've got to 80 hour weeks and 'successful' men from my comment?

I dont think women should rely on men.

I don't think they should either. I was responding to the comment about women being judged differently from men.

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar

Because they are.

And sometimes men are judged harshly when women aren't

(Being OK to live off a man being one of the only examples )

Well, the women of mumsnet certainly seem to enjoy not working. 😂

(disclaimer: I stole these quotes from another post discussing the thread titled 'You're lucky if you don't have to work'. I'm far too lazy to have collated them myself).

My sil is 44, rich and has NEVER had a job, lucky her! She has no trouble filling her day and has a great life.

Dp earns the money then gives it to me. Why would I feel oppressed?

I haven't worked in 8 years and bloody love it! I got to go shopping without ds today and have a long lunch with a friend. Going to the gym now.

My friend is married to the son of a billionaire and sometimes I have to block her on social media because her life is one long holiday.

I dont work, I was able to be a sahm with my sons, both in 30s now. I lunch, dressmake, walk my dogs for miles, spend time with friends and family etc....
I also volunteer for a small homeless charity, something I am so passionate about, being literally close to home.
I feel totally fulfilled!

My DSis married a very high earner and has never worked a day in her life.

My DH works 80 hours a week for a signficant amount of money, which allows me to be a SAHM and indulge myself, allow me to do all of my volunteering and my hobbies.

I work just a few hours a week in a job I love doing, I don’t have to work for financial reasons. I’ve accidentally ended up with a really high earning DH. I enjoy having lots of time to myself, I have hobbies, an amazing spa membership and an extremely fortunate to have some really good friends whom I’m able to see nearly every week.

My SIL is lucky enough to not have to work due to DB’s income. She has nice things, goes out for lots of lunches.

I'm a SAHM who has teenage children and is fortunate to be married to a high earner so I haven't needed to work since having kids. We do have a lifestyle that most people would find impressive.

I choose not to work. DH works really long shifts and odd hours so can be out of the house either days or nights, with each week being different. When the kids are grown I'll go and get some post-sahm work. Maybe in a shop, factory, cafe or something similar.

The funniest post was Monday morning when she started by posting “it’s going to be a long week, hoping the nanny isn’t late” followed by “anyone know a place I can get nails done, not happy with the place I’ve been going as I think they overcharge and wanting a day to pamper myself a bit.”

I feel lucky that I don't need to work. I am not getting any benefits because dh earns enough.

I'm lucky in that I didn't have to carry on working.

I am lucky enough not to work and stay at home with my son, as DH is a high earner. I feel extremely grateful for this every day, and try very hard not to take it for granted.

😂🤣🤣🤣😂

I'm not sure I can be overly concerned by the perils of poor men (who want to work anyway) having to support women.

They could always, shock horror, say no.

I think this all the time. Usually when the guilt-tripping emails come out about volunteering for school, saying that if no one comes forward then the children will have a rubbish school
life owing to no fundraising. The endless class WhatsApp discussions about what the children should bring into school - clothes, old boxes, pound coins. The men don’t give a shit and have an easier life as a result. And organising leaving and birthday collections at work - men don’t give a shit and again have one less highly time-consuming thing to think about. When trying to organise a night out I’d typically think of everyone’s dietary requirements and where they live to try to book somewhere suitable for everyone. The men in the group would just book somewhere they like the sound of and that’s that (and people tend not to dispute it). So I tend to think about what a man would do when I’m trying to make my life easier.

Apologies if I've somewhat derailed the thread. I just don't believe some of the tired old tropes we encounter so often.

I think it partly comes back to the assumption that we must be the same as men to be equal to them. So you have all these women claiming to love their jobs (honest guvnor) without realising that most men only do it for the money and to provide for their families rather than as some life affirming exercise. And despite their attestations that sitting at a desk creating spreadsheets is the most fulfilling thing in the world, women's happiness is declining decade on decade and men are killing themselves in alarming numbers too.

I think it's clear that both sexes are privileged in their own ways. A big one for women is the ability to enjoy a life of comfort without actually working for it, which does of course carry it's own risks - only these are ever focused on and never the benefits.

Feminists recognise this privilege so either reframe it as 'oppression' (which most of the women in question don't seem to agree with) or they instead try and distance themselves from these women and claim they 'could never live off a man'.

But the fact is that a fair number of women do live off men, and they often do quite well from it. It's disingenuous to pretend they don't exist. They may not be a feminist in the normal sense but they're no less a woman.

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar

That all just reads like a badly shoehorned moan about feminism

None of it really makes sense, especially not in the context of the thread

Or maybe you just don't want to believe it. 🤔

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar

Believe what?

But no I'm not particularly enamored with feminism in it's current form tbh. So many feminists seem to think they speak on behalf of women yet seem entirely oblivious to the fact that the vast majority of women don't identify with feminism anymore.

They do however believe in 'equality' which is quite telling IMO.

I feel feminism isn't what it used to be, personally. So much of it seems to be relatively privileged women moaning about stuff that isn't particularly profound. Microaggressions, manspreading, mansplaining. Yawn. It's often pretty tedious to be honest and many seem to be misanthropes who people aren't really interested in listening to.

But I make a distinction between 'feminism' and women's rights in the same way I make a distinction between 'MRAs' and men who are genuinely working on helping men. No doubt I'm wasting my breath on here but I find it hard not respond as I want to make it clear that they don't speak for me and many other women. There are good bits of feminism but also a lot of needlessly divisive bullshit.

Where are the strong women nowadays? They seem to have been replaced with a load of negative victim mentality types.

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar

I dont think a majority of women ever identified with feminism.

Most are happy with the status quo.

It’s just to reinforce other values. Questioning it breaks down the wall which we need.

Because as a rule men do what’s best for them, women - very particularly mothers - often do what’s best for others.

Men worry vastly less about what other people think.

Men overplay rather than underplay their achievements, they take credit where they can

Men don’t second guess themselves nearly as much, or beat themselves up for mistakes, or feel they constantly have to go the extra mile, or allow their voices to be silenced or their confidence to be crushed by criticism.

Men ask for more money and promotions at work, rather than wait to be recognised. They take more risks.

I say this as someone who employs women and men and has had about 50/50 male female peers over a 20+ year career, and this is my experience, obvs, and I am generalising, obvs, although the exceptions to the rule have been fairly few.

Thanks for explaining the female experience to us. Really useful. You wife will be proud.

Because men, a lot of the time, simply don't give a shit and they don't feel guilty about not feeling a shit either.

It's not about concerning ourselves with what men do, it's about concerning ourselves with less things . We have enough shit on our plate. It's a handy reminder.

Because in workplaces women often hold themselves back, undervalue themselves, second guess themselves and don’t ask as much as men do - in general this is.

I mentor younger women - and what would a male colleague do in your position -
ask for the promotion, ask for the money, put themselves forward for the project, speak up - can be very powerful.
And can help give them
perspective.

You may be right about that to be fair.

I think many people are just not very happy nowadays and many look for somebody to blame, whether that be men/immigrants/Tories/etc. Sometimes they have a point but a lot of the time it feels like they're really trying to make that shoe fit. I see this with the types who twist themselves in knots trying to make everything 'a feminist issue' or a battle of the sexes.

I don't think the past was necessarily great either and certainly many people suffered in silence/were lost between the cracks to problems that weren't socially acceptable to discuss back then (mental health for example) but I think our current society is very inward focused in a way that isn't healthy. I see this with all the gender stuff. Everything had to be in boxes/categories and people seem to have an odd need for validation/classification.

If there's a feminism I support it would be the equality of choice, but that isn't generally very popular. Typically we see people campaigning for equal numbers of men/women in particular jobs and trying to police the choices women make (which sort of diminishes the point of having a choice in the first place IMHO).

I regularly do stuff seen as 'men's work' like driving trucks and operating heavy machinery/tools etc. I do it because I enjoy it and because I hated office work. I rarely mention it in conversation as it's a job and I don't define myself by my work, but you'd be surprised how many women regale me about how we need more women in construction etc. These women are never actually walking the walk. It's almost always a woman with an office job and seemingly no cognitive dissonance that perhaps they're a reflection of the problem they describe (which I'm not sure is even a problem).

Women often wait for recognition -
men ask to be recognised. This really is true.
Fucking annoying when a male colleague wants a medal for doing something routine and mundane, but it gets them noticed.