Sad over historical deaths?

[Personyouneedisnannymcphee]

Obviously death happens every day and there are many recent, very sad deaths. But some historical ones actually make me ache a little when I think about them I think due to the details and historical background of them more so than sometimes things I hear on the news. Some of these being:

-the Romanov children. Of course the Tsar was horrific but how they died thinking they were going to safety and then didn’t get killed by bullets as jewels in their clothes protected them so they were finished with bayonets.

-Anne Boylyn’s death because the details of her ladies not letting the men touch her afterwards for fears they’d violate her headless body.

AIBU for sometimes being incredibly sad over these people I never knew or do you have your own historical death that makes your stomach drop when you think of it?

Oradour-sur-Glane.

Heartbreaking.

Stephen Lawrence
Anthony Walker

My grandfather , was rescued from Sachsenhausen concentration camp by the Kindertransport. He never saw his family again. And instead created a new one with another German Jewish refugee and decades later I was born.

The Srebrenica massacre brings tears to me. The ethnic cleansing, the rape houses, the mass graves still being found.

All of those mentioning Catherine Howard, I recommend listening the episode of the podcast "Not Just The Tudors" about her. It was first broadcast in 2021 but has been re-released this week so should be at the top of the news feed. It's an interview with historian Gareth Russell who wrote a book about Catherine's short life.

I follow the Auschwitz Museum Twitter feed. Every day they post details about a handful of people that died in the Camp, just a photo and a few basic details about the victim. The numbers involved in the Holocaust are too large to imagine, but seeing the individuals, particularly the children, really drives home the horror.

One of the tweets from today, a 9 year old Hungarian girl called Csibi Sxilvia Guttman murdered in May 1944: twitter.com/AuschwitzMuseum/status/1645652933093015552?s=20

Or that you have empathy and can care about things that don't affect you on a personal level.

Kipling never got over John's death - one of his poems written shortly after John was labelled as 'presumed dead' reads "If any question why we died/Tell them, because our fathers lied" and his subsequent work was far more dark and bitter.

He had quite a tragic personal life; he lost his little daughter Josephine to pneumonia when she was six, about 16 years before John was killed. His surviving daughter, Elsie, married but had no children.

PS - it was actually the Royal Navy John tried to enrol in at first, but he was rejected outright, and Rudyard then pulled strings to get him into the Army. He and Carrie spent many years visiting the area where John's battalion was last seen, and interviewing literally hundreds of survivors, all to no avail. It's so sad; neither of them recovered from it.

tbh, I don't feel sad about things in the past. What upsets me is the absolute knowledge that terrible things are happening to people all over the world now, that I can do nothing about, even if I was aware of them.

Sejanus's daughter, I don't know if her name was recorded. I keep hoping it's one of those things that didn't happen. Something made up to blacken the names of the perpetrators. It was a brief account in an otherwise forgettable novel that's haunted me. I've actively avoided trying to learn more.

Deaths of children always hurt me, particularly from acts of deliberate cruelty. I usually can 'armour' myself but this was unexpected and got through.

I think it’s normal. Sometimes someone’s story just touches you.

There’s a tower in York where Jewish people went for shelter from an angry mob in the 12th century. When the relationship with the tower’s keeper broke down, many families chose to die together rather than facing the mob outside.

The father of each family killed his wife and children, before killing himself. Thinking of those children looking to their parents to save them and being killed instead, and for those parents to have to choose whether it was kinder to kill their children themselves, or risk sending them out to a crowd of furious people who hated them… it’s just unthinkable.

The people trapped below deck on the titanic always gets to me too.

"Or that you have empathy and can care about things that don't affect you on a personal level."

Caring about it, yes? But, being sad in more than just a fleeting way? That's something else.

@Lesina i was about to say the same 😢

I don't agree he ever existed at all. I definitely don't agree that even if such a person existed, you know anything at all about them or how they died, and even if it was how the stories go, it wasn't any different from how plenty of others died back the, or was particularly horrible.

Likewise the Romanov children...I don't get the heartbreak. In a country and time of extremely high child mortality, a family that cared nothing for the people who kept them in immense wealth while those people died in much worse ways...I'm more bothered by the millions of Russian children starved to death while the Romanovs played with Faberge eggs and dined in splendour every day, or the Jews that the Tsar and his people persecuted, or all the students and workers that they ruthlessly killed, imprisoned or exiled.

Catherine Howard- effectively an abused child, married off to Henry VIII as a teen and executed for behaving as a teen

I've just seen SIX. All you wanna do, is just tragic. She was abused by so many men.

What gets me is that her cousin, Anne Boleyn had already died at the hand of Henry. Yet the Howard's sold Catherine down the river right after her. Anything for a sniff of power.

Penlee Lifeboat really gets me. A cargo ship on its maiden voyage got into trouble and attempts to rescue by helicopter failed. The lifeboat was launched and managed to take some of the people off the ship, but was then lost along with all hands from both vessels (16 people). The captain of the cargo ship had his wife and stepdaughters on board because it was a few days before Christmas. The last message from the lifeboat said they have four of the eight people off, two people still on board, meaning two people must have been lost during the rescue. How terrified they must all have been, and four thought they were close to safety, only to perish minutes later. They only found a few of the bodies.

There is an excellent documentary 'The Cruel Sea' available on youtube and a very good play on BBC Sounds called 'Solomon Browne'.

I don't agree he ever existed at all. I definitely don't agree that even if such a person existed, you know anything at all about them or how they died, and even if it was how the stories go, it wasn't any different from how plenty of others died back the, or was particularly horrible.
Jesus definitely was a real historical figure, as recorded in Roman records. Also even in ancient times crucifixion is a uniquely horrible death.

Good for you.

That’s right. Josephus the historian recorded that a man called Jesus existed and was crucified. That’s separate to whether he was the son of God, etc. However, as a real man who walked the earth and was killed for seeking to usurp Roman authority, yep very real. There were others killed for doing the same as Jesus was recorded as doing according to Roman history.

Possibly, possibly not. I mean, its accepted that a someone probably lived once with that name, but it doesn't mean anything. It's all stories

And theres nothing uniquely horrible about crucifixion. It wasn't uncommon, it was used a lot. Hardly anyworse that being drawn and quartered, or boiled in oil, or being put on a hot throne and crowned with a molten crown then flayed and eaten while still alive, as happened to one Hungarian rebel.

To take your approach, all history is just stories and we choose to believe what we want depending on how it gels with our views?

Reliable and widely accepted history says he existed and did some of the things documented in the Bible. Why does that bother you and cause you to not want this documented history to be true?

Whether you believe he was the Son of God is an entirely different matter.

What other reliable and widely accepted history do you choose, based on your professional and detail research, do you reject?

Thomas Andrews' story always does for me.

Accounts always paint him as a kind and considerate man who would not tolerate bullies or malingerers but was well loved by his employees. He was the only designer to think of putting a water fountain in the area where the stokers worked. It must have been a hot, dirty, thirst-inducing job and employers other than Andrews - who was I think an MD of Harland and Wolff at that time - didn't typically think of their workers' comfort.

As the ship was sinking he was reported to be doing the rounds inside, ensuring everyone was evacuated. When there was no more to do he was last seen hurling deck chairs overboard to serve as flotation aids to those in the water. (The story about him standing in the smoking room sans life jacket, whilst romantic, doesn't appear to have foundation).

It sounds as though he was a huge loss to all who knew him. His body was never found.

The story of York is terrible. The place has a fascinating albeit brutal history.

Heaven almighty - yes!

I'm tearing up thinking of him now - his parents/carers were truly evil.

Hear hear - it's an excellent book.

Alison Weir wrote a book about Lady Jane Grey, I read it on holiday and burst into tears at the description of her execution. She cries in panic when she cannot find the block, god, it was so emotive. Poor girl was just a tool for men who wanted power, and a woman desperate to secure her own power.

I always get upset when thinking about Dunblane or Sandy Hook. Those poor little children.

There are two roughly contemporary mentions of Jesus that are widely, though far from universally, accepted as credible.

A long and very interesting Mn thread between two well-informed posters is probably still searchable on here.