To be outraged about fee-paying schools and social inequality?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I have a ds in Y11 who has been researching potential careers and degrees and it has brought home to me what a horribly unequal society we still have in this country. Apparently 70% of barristers went to public school and there are similar stats for other desirable non-stem roles like journalism and the civil service, as well as medicine. It's a bloody disgrace - what a joke for a supposedly modern society.

And it seems that certain schemes like blind recruitment might also feed into this as although going to Oxbridge might have become slightly more attainable recently thanks to contextual offers and an awareness that those institutions shouldn't be filled with people from certain schools, now blind recruitment means the advantage a state school student may have got from going there is pretty much cancelled out.

To me it seems that ds is most disadvantaged in a way as he wouldn't qualify for schemes aimed at people who are the first in their families to go to uni and we aren't in a deprived area, but he has none of the advantages that would have come from going to an independent school. Everything about us is just average!

He is very bright (predicted all 9s and got that in his mocks) and wants to achieve but it seems that the odds are against people like him having prestigious roles. Obviously when he is quoting these stats at me I'm telling him not to be defeatist and that he has every chance of doing something amazing as long as he keeps working hard, but inside I'm wondering if how true that is.

I've always been against fee-paying schools but him reeling off all these stats at me has just been sickening and yet when Labour make noises about doing something about it there's outrage when in my opinion there should be daily outrage about the current situation.

Can anyone who cares about fairness honestly say I'm BU?

Sadly it sounds like you're one of those people who are never happy with what they have, and always comparing and wanting what others have.

Many kids at private schools also work bloody hard, if your son is working hard too, and predicted 9s, why wouldn't he succeed in life? He's not disadvantaged at all as far as I can see.

That is only because the old system with one grammar school (at least) in every council area was abolished in 1968 (the borough I was born in had three grammar schools). Don't compare today's grammar schools with the old ones. That's comparing apples and oranges. The old system can never be restored, but Labour needs to acknowledge its part in destroying a very good educational system.

The bar is unusual in that it’s prestigious but very poorly paid at beginning.
It takes financial support to be able to survive.
If you are an Oxford/RG graduate looking at a corporate solicitor job paying a decent salary a month or the bar where you will be working at a loss it’s easy to see why those without family money plump for solicitor not barrister.
If you need monthly income to pay rent then the bar alone won’t support you.

Just because Oxbridge looks at the context in which grades have been won (quite rightly) it does not mean they give contextual offers. They do not. Two entirely different things. Can we please put this myth to bed?

I think private schools should be totally scrapped... but I am a total leftie and teach in one of the most deprived schools in the uk... the standard of education (and related trips and extra curricular activities!) should be universal imo!

University of Cambridge website (6 April 2023)

"One of the strengths of the Cambridge admissions system is its ability to assess all applicants individually, and Colleges may modify offers to take account of individual circumstances. This means that some applicants may be set less/more challenging offers than those listed on these pages/in the course entries, and some offers may specify grades to be achieved in particular subjects."

Look, in the end, most people are average, have average jobs, and average lives. Being happy or unhappy doesn't seem to be mainly about being above average, or to a point, below average. Obviously at a certain level life is very bad but that doesn't seem likely to apply to your son.

If he's really got his heart set on some high-end career, the only answer is working hard, harder than a lot of middle-class average kids are encouraged to work by both schools and families. I don't say that as a criticism, I think there is something to be said for balanced academics. But fee paying schools in general give able kids the capacity to do a lot of work, in a way that state education no longer seems to, and many families don't insist on.

I think you’re making assumptions about your son’s life chances that aren’t necessarily true.
I do take your point that in an ideal world every child would have an equal bite of the cherry and I wish it were so however I don’t think the answer is to lower everyone’s educational experience to the lowest common denominator.
My husband and I sacrificed a great deal financially and after primary school educated our boys privately. It wasn’t a fancy school at all, it wasn’t particularly academic, we sent them there really for the discipline because out eldest son had struggled in year 7 at the comprehensive he went to which in quite a leafy part of Surrey people fought to get their children into.
Those things which make the difference to the young people who attend the more humble private schools have little to do with privilege in my opinion and a great deal more to do with ethos.
Your son sounds like he’s doing really well and supremely importantly he has the support of engaged parents.
The answer to the important issue you raise is not to lower the educational experience of every young person to that of those at the worst sink comp but to raise them to the experience of young people at the most modest independent school which I promise you is largely not about money.

This. Notice how it's mostly wealthy, white men who have the most money and the best jobs. If you're white you're already more privileged than most. Google "if someone doesn't understand privilege show them this" video or "On a plate comic strip"

The stats that you have stated are limited in further information to be able to support your arguement. In recent years there has been so much made of diversity and inclusion, when you say 70% of lawyers were privately educated, how do you know that the vast majority of the 30% who were not, were not all employed during the past few years and in actual fact there has been a sea change in employment habits? I dont no if thats the case but I do have 3 lawyer friends. All 3 were state school educated to average working families, 1 of them has done very well and after a few years of working, now works in London for a golden circle law firm. Stats can be twisted any way you want. If your DS wants to achieve something, tell him to go for it.

This! As someone who attended a private school On a scholarship it irks me when middle class people act as if private school magically confers these kid of things to you when the reality there are many state educated children who have the luxuries you mentioned and some private school kids who don’t.

I know middle class people who spend their money taking their kids on European breaks, private tutoring and various after school clubs & hobbies but they don’t see their own advantage because their kid attends the local state school. And in most cases that state school is in an affluent area and has a great academic record.

They do and despite their poorer academic achievements they still manage to get better paid jobs than certain other groups such as black men for example.

Countless studies show if you put John Smith on a CV next to a near identical one with the name Dami or Ahmed etc and John will get a far better response from employers and job agencies.

This is why many working class ethnic minority kids are told by their parents they can’t slack like their white peers because they will face greater consequences for it.

Well said

I don’t think yabu to point out this is wrong in our society

of course your ds has more of an advantage compared to some but that it’s not that you are making

i am will to bet that a number on here who think yabu have children at private school

ds is at private school and it’s a huge privilege he isn’t particularly academic he got there down to preparation and tutoring, he has had and will continue to have opportunities in life because of what the schools he attended and what the schools have instilled in him

I am well aware of his privilege and so is he as he should be. I agree it’s not fair and what makes it worse is that this is not acknowledged in the private system this is pushed aside and dismissed because it’s deemed uncouth to discuss privilege and many to kid themselves it’s down to their children super intelligence and hard work

OP, the stats for barristers (and all the other professions) represent the situation of people who left school 10-40 years ago.

A generation ago, it was common for middle class families to send their kids to private school; it no longer is, because fees have risen to an absurd extent and because middle class families are also faced with higher housing costs (for themselves and for their kids who will need housing deposits), and the need to fund things like pensions for longer life expectancies.

If you look at the stats for people actually going into law right now, they will be very different.

It is totally incorrect to say they have to do unpaid internships. Internships are now paid and highly competitive having to go through rounds of online assessments.

Ok, let's address whole barrister thing. the way it is at the moment to even become a barrister and to afford to live in the first few years (remember no salary, it's per client) you have to come from a position of financial security.

Secondly it's the "who you know". Part of barrister training is the hours you have to put in at your Inn of Court. At the dinners etc your DS would have as much of a chance of talking to and impressing a judge or senior member of chambers (judges remain a part of their chamber) as would anyone else. He just has to refrain from drinking too much and acting like an idiot in front of them. That is where private school training helps, they are taught how to behave at these type of events, but you are perfectly able to do that too.

Also, there are a number of top notch unis for law, King, Queen Mary, UCL to name 3.

yabu. your son is being defeatist and looking at irrelevant (and inaccurate) stats that don't actually say anything about current opportunities and recruitment. you are fueling this and sorry to be blunt but spouting nonsense about costs of accessing a profession you clearly know nothing about. if your son is going to make it in a competitive and intellectually very demanding profession he needs to do better research, speak to people who actually work in the profession, find out how they made it work and find out how he can do it, rather than creating excuses in advance as to why he is destined to fail (and blaming everyone else). there are plenty of barristers who are from disadvantaged backgrounds. plenty. they probably are far less likley to do legal aid paid work but there are pupil awards paying 6 figures in london. pupillage earnings should be added on top. avoid criminal work, that absolutely does not pay. if that's all he wants to do then he should look at working for the cps not be an independent barrister. work experience can be done during university. people work as paralegals, not unpaid internships, then apply if they need to build up their cv. he's making excuses and you are enabling this attitude of blaming the system. he will not make it because of this attitude - it's not because he is in any way shape or form disadvantaged.

I really do t think 70% of medical graduates went to private school where did he get that from? The very top jobs I agree have more from private schools but I think you also have to look at which schools and their family connections because they’re not just any private school pupil.
the people who moan most about this are often those who are pretty privileged themselves- your son has expensive holidays, a parent who is a teacher and goes to school in a decent area. Does he realise that he’s very privileged himself? If you’d really wanted to you could have done without the holidays, taught in a private school and got reduced fees. 20% of 16-18 go to private sixth form. Take the percentage doing apprenticeship and qualifications which wouldn’t qualify for uni, that’s a large percentage of those applying went to private school. You’re teaching him to have a chip on his shoulder about something that really doesn’t matter nearly as much as you think

Yeah it's rubbish but not really a surprise OP , come on? And your son has alot going for him having a supportive family and being academically able. I would suggest you look up the outcomes for care experienced kids - that is heartbreaking ! Add in if they are black or disabled and their opportunities are so restricted! It's a bloody shame and we should be fighting for care leavers !

By accident of birth your son was born clever and to supportive parents, and you want that to help him get ahead in life. Yet you're outraged thst another child, born by accident of birth to rich parents, would do the same?

Personally I think it’s not private school conferring some magical benefit. It’s money. There’s a similar unfairness in the way in many places the best state schools are the ones in the expensive catchments and the worst state schools are the ones in deprived catchments.

Setting that aside, I think if your son is state educated and gets straight 9s over the next 2.5 years you’ll find he’s top of the pile in the employment market (assuming he’s a nice person). People who’ve got super bright children who’ll excel in state school are better off keeping them in state even if they can afford private.

I'd assume someone who went to private school had wealthy parents, I wouldn't assume they were clever if anything far from it - based on my own experiences.

Can people stop stating how supportive ds's parents are? I'm not saying ex is unsupportive as such but he has had zero input into the dc's education and doesn't contribute financially. Ds2 is considering various careers and has been laughed at and told some of the options he's considering are boring. It won't matter to ds in the long run but it's a bit irritating reading about ds's supportive parents in the light of it.

As for our holidays, £3k per year is an estimate and includes one European break and a couple of mini breaks in the UK. We've only had them since the divorce 7 years ago (and didn't have them in the 2 covid years) as before then money was a lot tighter as I hadn't been in my career long (only started it at 30) and ex didn't have a career. When I took control of my own finances I realised by being more sensible we could afford modest holidays abroad but I really don't think I could have stretched to sending two dc to private schools and I wouldn't have wanted to as I disagree with their existence and always have. I work in a deprived area and would absolutely hate to work in a private school. I don't think it would be fulfilling at all. I do think there are a lot of people here who have 'scrimped and saved' to send their dc to private schools and are quite defensive about being told they have bought a privilege for their child, even though they presumably knew they were, hence their decision to scrimp and save.

I said a few posts in that I was well aware ds is at an advantage compared to many and I support the schemes to improve access to higher education, including those my dc won't benefit from. That doesn't mean we should ignore glaring inequalities that still exist and not strive to make a more equal society. All the 'life's not fair, suck it up' comments here are a bit sickening really and I do think some posters accusing me to encourage ds to develop a chip on his shoulder are again just feeling defensive about the privilege they know they have bought for their dc.

The answer to the important issue you raise is not to lower the educational experience of every young person to that of those at the worst sink comp but to raise them to the experience of young people at the most modest independent school which I promise you is largely not about money.

Lovepeaceandunderstanding I find that quite an insulting comment about 'sink comps' - what do you even mean by that? And if we are talking about raising standards and opportunities for everyone I promise you it absolutely is about money, even though some of that money needs to be spent long before children get to 'comps' in supporting their families through initiatives like Surestart etc, which were cut by the Tories.