Euthanasie, dont legalise in UK.

[MrsMarkieParkie]

I just read that 8% of deaths in Canada last year happened via euthanasia. This doesnt sit right with me. Also, as described in the article, the protocol seems mostly the same as the US death by lethal injection.
Do we want this in the UK?

This. There are examples upthread of people who haven’t made the decision ahead of time and who have their request for euthanasia declined. There are safeguards. This case is emotive but assisted dying cases often are.

It is a choice, it’s not mandatory. All assisted dying campaigners want is the ability to choose in difficult circumstances. If it’s not for you that’s fine but my decision should be between me and my doctors.

@GoldenAye I think whether the decision is reversible is not relevant. We should honour a decision that is made with capacity over one made without.

I think you don't understand what capacity means. It means you cannot retain or hold information. A decision you made about your future when you had capacity should always be upheld vs one when you didn't. That's the true personality .

So if you asked the person do you want a DNR at that point , they wouldn't understand the question. CPR won't reverse the underlying terminal illness it's very brutal with a very low success rate.

@Felixss

I think you don't understand what capacity means. It means you cannot retain or hold information. A decision you made about your future when you had capacity should always be upheld vs one when you didn't. That's the true personality .

I'm very aware of the meaning of 'capacity', thanks. I've experienced it with my own mother, who died at age 58 with early-onset dementia and cancer in a nursing home. Towards the end, she didn't have what you would call 'capacity', but she had awareness. She couldn't remember where she was or what was wrong with her, but she knew who I was. Morphine took her life, so you could say that was passive euthanasia she didn't consent to.

I'm not certain it's that clear-cut where the line is as to the loss of capacity.

So if you asked the person do you want a DNR at that point , they wouldn't understand the question. CPR won't reverse the underlying terminal illness it's very brutal with a very low success rate.

Where did CPR come from? I didn't mention it.

Any guidelines for passive/active involuntary euthanasia (euthanasia where consent hasn't been given and/or an earlier DNR is being disregarded) would need to be extremely clear.

“I'm uncomfortable with the notion that the medical profession - and families - may override the desire of someone who wishes to live simply because previously, at a weak point, authorised a DNR or similar. The wish of the person is question is paramount - not the family's, nor the doctors.”

Well, yes, because when they made that decision they were in sound mind and took the decision knowingly and informed. And that’s why they made it. Their rational self, while they had capacity, took that decision.

Later they will lose the above to give or rescind informed decision about their future.

I don’t understand why this is so hard to comprehend.

I think you are deeply over-simplifying the issue. Consent isn't as simple as a DNR signed four years ago at the bequest of family members (for example).

The fact that so many people are ok with the idea of administering death to someone who no longer wants it, is pretty good evidence of why this kind of legislation is so dangerous and why safeguards in place are unlikely to remain.

How was her life taken away from morphine? She had it to ease her pain she had dementia and cancer, what treatment do you think they could have possibly done?

To counter these arguments that this might happen or that might happen

Euthanasia WILL stop DYING people suffering

**

They don't hand out DNRs for no reason (apart from COVID which was shocking ) there's an underlying progressive illness which CPR wouldn't fix. CPR is brutal and carrying it out on someone who is terminal is cruel when it will not reverse the illness. It's giving someone a cruel undignified death , strapped up to wires clothing cut off. Broken ribs. Instead of comfy in bed having loved ones around, it's an assault on a person and should not be done on someone in terminal decline.

@Felixss

They don't hand out DNRs for no reason (apart from COVID which was shocking ) there's an underlying progressive illness which CPR wouldn't fix. CPR is brutal and carrying it out on someone who is terminal is cruel when it will not reverse the illness. It's giving someone a cruel undignified death , strapped up to wires clothing cut off. Broken ribs. Instead of comfy in bed having loved ones around, it's an assault on a person and should not be done on someone in terminal decline.

Why do you continue to mention CPR when I never did?

You mentioned people being pressured into signing DNRs. All a DNR means is there will be no attempt to do CPR if the heart stops, it doesn't mean no treatment.

@Felixss

How was her life taken away from morphine? She had it to ease her pain she had dementia and cancer, what treatment do you think they could have possibly done?

She was given a high dose of morphine one night. It was too much for her system. She died. Is that enough for you?

Did you make a complaint to PALs? What dosage did they give her Vs normal dosage ? Was she opioid naive? I think sometimes the medical team unfortunately don't explain things well, it's illegal to purposely overdose someone you should complain if this is the case. If someone is in pain etc in palliative care you can increase the dose up until they aren't in discomfort his can sometimes hasten death as a side effect. Your DM unfortunately had cancer and dementia both of these are terminal painful illnesses which combined there is no cure . The staff would be wanting to help her be pain free.

My grandma had a syringe driver put in and died a few hours after returning home (she wanted to die at home) she had terminal bowel cancer and it had spread to her liver. There was no hope for recovery died 4 weeks post diagnosis . She seemed comfortable and at peace which is what was best for her. I miss her terribly but I'm so glad she didn't have to suffer for long.

It’s really sad that your presumption is that relatives will use pressure to make somebody go for an advance decision.

After seeing a cancer death I’m all for it. I feel lik my mils last week was completely horrific for her and you wouldn’t make an animal suffer like that so why a human.

@Felixss

Did you make a complaint to PALs? What dosage did they give her Vs normal dosage ? Was she opioid naive? I think sometimes the medical team unfortunately don't explain things well, it's illegal to purposely overdose someone you should complain if this is the case. If someone is in pain etc in palliative care you can increase the dose up until they aren't in discomfort his can sometimes hasten death as a side effect. Your DM unfortunately had cancer and dementia both of these are terminal painful illnesses which combined there is no cure . The staff would be wanting to help her be pain free.

I'm not in the UK so PALS doesn't apply. She wasn't opioid naive, no. I'm very aware of all the things in your post. Where I live, it's also illegal to give someone a higher dose of morphine (for example) to induce death, but it does happen more than occasionally. She wasn't technically receiving palliative care.

Some might. Of course not all! That was an example of how some DNRs may not always be in the patient's best interests - or even the patient's true wishes, with their consent. Can you see a scenario where this may the case?

Some might. Would a small number of these cases be a good enough reason to punish the majority where that won’t be the case?

No law or provision is ever 100% safe of loopholes or possibilities for cheating. But I suppose it says a lot about people who assume their relatives will put them under pressure or will try to take advantage of them, and that’s not in a good way.

"Punish" is an odd way of terming it. Laws are made to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Even if it's a small number, this is exactly why you would have laws and guidelines in the first place.

There is always something who will slip through the safeguards.

The laws are about protecting those who don’t want to suffer unnecessarily, with no chance of getting better.

So you do not care if people re murdered?

We already have relatives who try and stop their relative going into a care home to protect their inheritance. I have seen this happen myself and Social Services stepped in to help the person get a care home place and ensure their house was sold to pay for it.
Of course some people would want their relatives euthanised to protect their inheritance.

My mother died of bowel cancer. It was a very peaceful death.

I hope and pray that assisted dying becomes legal in the very near future. It is humane and compassionate and nobody should have to travel abroad to access it.