To think teaching unions aren’t actually particularly helpful to teachers?

[Easterrabbits]

So I know I’m probably going to be deemed goady or purposefully provocative here and that’s not the intention, but I’d genuinely like to know about this.

I’ve been teaching a pretty long time now - since the early 2000s - and when I used to use the old TES forums, the same story with only slight variations would crop up again and again: someone would be bullied and unfairly targeted at school and the advice would always be to involve the Union. But then when the union was involved it would almost inevitably lead to a settlement agreement / agreed reference but often with the persons career prospects damaged or impacted as a result. I don’t think I ever heard of one story in nearly twenty years where a teacher was able to successfully fight threats of capability, and judging from a Facebook group I am a member of, this is still the case.

I am all for a pay rise (who wouldn’t be) but I am not confident at all the union are going to be able to successfully negotiate it, especially given questionable activities elsewhere - further details on this thread.

I can’t pretend to be an expert here. I just feel that after failing to successfully address bullying, seeming to support an end to exclusions, some mad behaviour with drag queens I don’t feel at all confident that they are going to be able to hold the government to account and get a decent and funded pay rise. I think public perception of teachers could be damaged as a result.

I guess in short I really don’t have a lot of faith or confidence in the unions generally. The NEU are good at blasting and trumpeting but don’t DO much and the NASUWT are more moderate but not necessarily particularly helpful if you do actually need their support.

I’ll prepare to be flamed now … [smile ]

@noblegiraffe I'm not your enemy.

That's what the government would like, isn't it? Classic divide and rule.

It's OK for teachers to expect their union to support them in times of trouble. But often they don't. I had to pay for an employment lawyer the first time and the second time organise my colleagues myself. Maybe that's atypical; maybe it isn't.

Teachers wanting legally competent representation and advice is a different issue to e.g. asbestos. Do the BMA have a position on asbestos? There's loads of it in hospitals.

It's problematic that all these different issues are rolled into one.

I'm not your enemy.

But if you, a teacher, disapprove of teachers campaigning to the government for better working conditions during industrial action that appears to have widespread support from teachers, then what?

I have to say I also have opinions on a teacher posting an anti teaching union thread on AIBU during industrial action where it looks like the majority of teachers (not just the NEU) have voted to reject a pay deal.

I'm happy to agree to differ regarding what unions are for.

But this is why I left the NEU, you see. Teachers aren't a homogeneous mass who all believe one thing, see one solution to problems, work in one type of setting.

If you close down debate, ultimately people will leave unions that don't represent them.

That is already happening.

Just to clarify, I don't disagree with campaigning, of course I don't.

I don't think the strikes are going to solve the problems because the problems are largely not to do with pay and the strike is officially about pay.

The problems are large and probably require an election. I can't see how paying teachers a bit more would solve anything other than ameliorating cost of living a little. In fact if the pay rises aren't fully funded some problems will immediately get worse because budgets for everything else will shrink.

But you deliberately left the unions and joined an organisation that doesn’t do any campaigning. If you didn’t like the NEU, the NAS offers a very different approach.

I get why that might not matter in other times, but right now there are incredibly strong feelings across the board in teaching regarding this pay offer. And that unity will matter. All those votes to reject will matter.

In fact if the pay rises aren't fully funded some problems will immediately get worse because budgets for everything else will shrink

So presumably you’d have voted against the unfunded pay offer and supported the action which started because of last year’s unfunded pay offer.

I can’t imagine, at this time, sitting by and watching teacher colleagues make their opinions known and know that I don’t have any voice, any say, any vote. And that means my say, my vote goes to the government. This government.

The thing I would say about a union like Edapt is that they actually have very limited bargaining power. If you, personally, have been treated unlawfully or against school policy, then I am sure they are really useful.

But if it is the school policy itself that is unfair but not unlawful, then it's a striking union that is going to be able to deal with that more unfairly. And certainly if it's a national issue, then it's the striking unions who are going to be able to affect change.

I'd also add that a rep in your school often knows how others have been treated and can therefore point out unfairness etc, which can be a very useful tool.

I do think NEU/NASUWT are lot less effective when there isn't a rep in school - we really need people to stand up and become reps, it's so important.

I want to be part of a union that will bargain collectively towards better conditions, whether that's in my school or nationally. I know it's possible to do this outside of the union structure locally, but unions do have the apparatus to enable us to organise more effectively and quickly. And nationally I do think traditional trade unions are proving their worth.

I'm very proud to be part of a union that didn't encourage it's members to accept a crap pay offer - like some of the health unions are doing. And I'm happy to be part of a union that is openly left wing and not afraid of that - and yes that may mean accomodating some views I don't fully agree with BUT if you're going to be part of a large, fighting union then I don't think you're ever going to agree on everything?

I think the figures show that a lot of education professionals do like what the NEU is doing - membership has grown by over 10% since the strike ballot...

The NEU's key fight is for a fully funded pay rise - which is so, so needed for the future of education. And we are managing to be at least somewhat effective.

I'm sorry but I think people who say a pay rise is irrelevant need to spend a year on an ECT salary in a city like Bristol...

I'm not going to post further on this thread because you're not listening and you are making it personally about me.

I wish you good luck with your action.

Edapt isn't a union.