To think teaching unions aren’t actually particularly helpful to teachers?

[Easterrabbits]

So I know I’m probably going to be deemed goady or purposefully provocative here and that’s not the intention, but I’d genuinely like to know about this.

I’ve been teaching a pretty long time now - since the early 2000s - and when I used to use the old TES forums, the same story with only slight variations would crop up again and again: someone would be bullied and unfairly targeted at school and the advice would always be to involve the Union. But then when the union was involved it would almost inevitably lead to a settlement agreement / agreed reference but often with the persons career prospects damaged or impacted as a result. I don’t think I ever heard of one story in nearly twenty years where a teacher was able to successfully fight threats of capability, and judging from a Facebook group I am a member of, this is still the case.

I am all for a pay rise (who wouldn’t be) but I am not confident at all the union are going to be able to successfully negotiate it, especially given questionable activities elsewhere - further details on this thread.

I can’t pretend to be an expert here. I just feel that after failing to successfully address bullying, seeming to support an end to exclusions, some mad behaviour with drag queens I don’t feel at all confident that they are going to be able to hold the government to account and get a decent and funded pay rise. I think public perception of teachers could be damaged as a result.

I guess in short I really don’t have a lot of faith or confidence in the unions generally. The NEU are good at blasting and trumpeting but don’t DO much and the NASUWT are more moderate but not necessarily particularly helpful if you do actually need their support.

I’ll prepare to be flamed now … [smile ]

@HelpsHeal I and the other part time staff had part time contracts. We were bullied out of jobs. We were not made redundant. No proper process was followed. There was no reason for it other than the new head didn't like part time staff. It was after an ofsted inspection in which I got glowing feedback while the school was put in special measures. Why would I and my fellow part timers be targeted?

I’ve not seriously needed my Union yet (touch wood), however, if I were ever in a situation where a student made a false accusation against me I’d be very glad that I’d paid my subs.

I am wondering why you are posting a thread OP saying the unions are useless, simply based on some forum posts where you don't know the full facts?

It's the right wing press slagging off teachers that damaged public perception of them, not unions. The right wing press always try to distract attention from government failings by finding various scapegoats. Teachers are one of them

Although the unions could do with some PR support, during covid it was the government, msm and groups like twats4themselves us4them, that put teachers in a bad light,

OK, so scrap the unions.
Loose any support they may offer. Loose the pay negotiation support. Loose the information.
Yes, they may be far from perfect, but they are a million times better than nothing.

I had poor experiences with ATL and NEU (who took over ATL) and switched to Edapt a few years back. I've been very satisfied with them - they have properly trained and paid legal staff.

Schools are very complex nowadays. You need to know people trying to help you are competent with the law.

With volunteer union reps, I think they are very variable. Some are excellent and others not so much.

When I needed them 5 years ago (being put on a 10 week informal support plan at 34 weeks pregnant - after they didn’t follow any processes properly) the county union rep absolutely wiped the floor with school and it was all overturned.
I returned from maternity leave and have worked at the same school ever since, however in some ways I wish I had taken a settlement and left at that point because I’ve watched so many other colleagues bullied out for ridiculous reasons and I’m living on edge waiting for it to be me again!

@rattymol it isn’t purely that, but when you’ve seen the same story over and over again, even allowing for recollections varying, patterns emerge.

Someone will be targeted, and you know, this might be totally fair, they might be completely incompetent. I don’t know. Either way, they are union members and post to say things like - the union weren’t interested, the union didn’t want to know, the union didn’t return my calls.

Unless there’s been a massive conspiracy taking place over nearly two decades, which isn’t plausible, it does seem to me that unions aren’t really providing a lot of support and that in turn makes me doubt that they are able to tackle the government. But I hope I’m wrong!

My union has helped me twice to be fair in my career.

First time was in the early Covid days when I contacted it and my school tried not to pay me for being unable to remote teach (could barely breathe). My school is an academy run by a board not used to running schools. They fought to get me paid.

The second time they helped the whole school. Our academy published our hours and then went over by a significant amount. The union challenged this and we have had a massive reduction in hours.

I am not saying they are always useful or right but they definitely can be.

I think the thing you will find with unions in terms of casework, is that they very a lot in terms of your school rep/local union branch. I find a lot of people phone the central advice lines, or email, and I don't think that's the best way to get support for a specific issue.

My experience with my union (NEU) is that the local branch are super helpful and supportive, and really helped with an issue we had in a prior school BUT in order to challenge it, we did need staff to stick their heads above the parapet and say they were unhappy and be willing to put their name to something. As soon as we had a (small) group of staff willing to say "X isn't okay" then we found leadership quickly changed their tune and things did improve as far as they were able.

I have to say the local NASUWT were also willing to get involved, but as their membership in the school was so small, there was a limit to what they could do collectively.

Equally, I know the local branch are super supportive with casework. The thing with people leaving with an agreed settlement (and reference)- often this is what the member of staff wants in the end. Very few staff want to stay in a school where they have been bullied. Apparently a lot of our casework is around negotiating references so people CAN leave a school when they want to. I am not saying that that's always the case.

The thing to remember about a union is that it's only as strong as its members. I think a lot of people view a union as something that comes in from outside and tells the school they must follow the law/STPCD etc, and that is true, sometimes they can do that. But when things aren't so cut and dried, it becomes harder and often it's down to what the union members in that school are willing to do.

If people have an issue, and someone says "go to the union" I wouldn't advise people to bother with the central advice lines. They will tell you the legal position, but that's not always much help. What you need is a rep in school who can argue your corner and organise other staff if needed. If you don't have that, then second best is someone from the branch BUT they often only have limited time, and large caseloads.

If you don't have a rep in school or an organised union in school, then you are so much weaker, and there is a limit to what the union can do, because that's how it works.

And if you have a really good rep in school, when they ask you to do things, it is a good idea to at least try to help...

The support I received from my union when a student made a malicious allegation against me was invaluable.

During Covid, I'd strongly argue that NEU and NAHT saved the lives/health of school staff- that's worth more than PR.

People forget that teachers were dying during the 2020-21 Christmas break.

They also forget that the schools that were being praised in other countries actual had measures in place to prevent the spread whilst teachers in England had nothing.

They also forget that it was the government that closed schools and suspended the curriculum (in the first lockdown).

Apparently, I have a lot of thoughts about this.

I think some of this comes down to what we see unions as being "for".

I think a lot of teachers join a union for individual protection- but I don't think that's what NEU sees itself as being for. I think the NEU sees itself as being for large scale campaigns around teaching and education, and national bargaining. Which is not to say NEU reps and branches don't do casework, and there aren't paid union staff who help with this, but it's not their reason for existing.

For someone like EDAPT, this is their reason for existing and so they are very good at this. And as they don't run on a model of in school reps, I imagine you get a better outcome from phoning their advice line.

I think NASUWT probably sits somewhere in the middle at the moment.

But I still think a lot of it comes down to how good/strong your union is in your school, and what leverage they can bring against your employer. Ultimately, the vast majority of cases reps deal with are not easy/cut and dry- if the school has clearly done something illegal, I do know the NEU will sometimes get lawyers in/take a school to employment tribunal, but they'll generally only do it if they think they've got a good chance of winning.

Unfortunately, discrimination and bullying can be difficult to prove, and a negotiated settlement is often the best outcome for an employee.

I also know the NEU (and I'm sure other unions too) does represent people at GTR panels, and in some cases does save their career that way.

Completely.

I think the unions acted in the interests of their members- which may not have been in complete alignment with the interests of students at all times.

People might say that's "bad PR", but I don't think preventing the unsafe reopening of schools is "unhelpful".

@Postapocalypticcowgirl i do understand the argument that the union is only as strong as its members but that doesn’t work when what you need is specialist advice and if you can’t access it. And sometimes that does need to come in from outside, with the best will in the world, there’s only so much an individual teacher or even teachers can do.

You tend to get responses along the lines of teachers who aren’t in a union are just so stupid, but if that union aren’t going to be able to protect you when push comes to shove it doesn’t make an awful lot of difference except if you are wanting to lobby politically. Otherwise as you say EDAPT is probably a better option.

@KinderCat how awful you went through that but so glad it was resolved!

I am happy with the pay rise my Union negotiated. I'm with the EIS.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl, I think that's a good point.

That does partly explain why I had such a poor experience. When I belonged to ATL (later NEU) I worked for a grammar school and later an independent school (with a year in-between at an academy chain, but rather an unusual setting). None of these schools had union reps and at the first two I had little idea who was in a union and no way of finding out. At the independent, when we had a dispute over something, it turned out we only had about 1/3 of staff with NEU - not enough to make a difference, although by banding together on our own account (without union help) we succeeded in getting a good result.

I completely agree about staff needing to be prepared to stand up and be counted to make changes. You don't have to be in a union to do that, though. The law protects you just the same.

Maybe the traditional unions need to actually ask what members think they are for? It could be quite enlightening!

I found the ATL good but I've been unimpressed since the merger when it became the NEU.
Since their recent suggestion that we need drag queens in schools I'm very much considering a new union. Thanks for the Edapt recommendation.

There's another one called "Community" as well - former steel union I think. They visited my school recently. It would be good for NEU to have some competition I think.

I am in the NEU and have just come back from the national conference. It is quite an experience. Yes motions were passed that I don't agree with and voted against but a lot were really important especially the early years motion which was about the funding of the extra hours.

Yes a motion did say to support drag Queen story time but that will be down to members there is no force or official command on what to actually do.

I have been active in my union for some time and so I am biased but believe me members do criticise the union when they find or believe it is failing.

We had Paul Whiteman speaking to conference which was very interesting and there was a bit debate and discussion about Ofsted with some very emotional stories of personal experiences.

If you feel your district is not helping you then ask to be referred higher up and phone the help line. It is not perfect by any mean but it is the union I know and am part of.

Thinking more about how the OP is questioning whether the unions are capable of successfully negotiating with the government over pay - well, they managed to get the government to the table, didn't they? That was, at one point, not even on the cards. Look at how they dragged their heels at sitting down even with the nurses. Nurses!

And the NEU might hold some positions that piss me off quite a lot(!), but they have managed to galvanise the teaching profession behind them in this pay dispute. They've done a bloody good job of picketing, protesting, communicating, and for Mary and Kevin, putting a calm public face to the action.

Edapt? They aren't even at the table. I mean, if you join Edapt because you want some support if you have a dispute with your headteacher, but who would be no fucking use if you have an issue with the people actually running the show however badly they're doing it, then I guess you get what you pay for.

Are the unions going to negotiate a successful outcome with the government? Well, we have to hope so, because we're fucked if they don't. But if they don't, that speaks more to the government than the unions. The unions have right on their side and the government are a pile of horseshit and we all know it.

I suppose the difficulty comes that most (some?) teachers want the individual support (with employment disputes, malicious allegations etc), and to be represented on a national level. There is a huge opportunity cost. If an organisation is mainly campaigning, it's unlikely to be effective at one to one support too. They're totally different things.

I think the experience of belonging to a union in a selective school (whether that's state or independent) is very different. For one thing you're paying to belong to a union that disapproves of the type of school you work in. This is evident from their publications!

I suppose a teacher could join a political union, and Edapt for personal support, but that would be very expensive.

Union membership is a charged for service. People paying for a service are entitled to ask if it meets their needs.

Maybe it should be possible to contribute separately for campaigning. It has been evident from discussions on here that some teachers didn't actually realise they were signing up for that.

I agree that IF you belong to a union because you want there to be a voice for teachers "at the table" then NEU has succeeded.

If you want there to even be a table. Or anyone speaking up for teachers.

Do people in Edapt who disapprove of campaigning think the asbestos is fine, the unsafe buildings are fine, the pay is fine, the workload is fine?