Page 3 | Aibu to agree completely with this teacher? Teaching should not just be trusted to the teachers?

Bláthannabuí · 2023-04-06T09:43:21+00:00

[[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10367349/Parents-children-lessons-DAY-school-says-Superhead-Katharine-Birbalsingh.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10367349/Parents-children-lessons-DAY-school-says-Superhead-Katharine-Birbalsingh.html]] Article is from last year. But I agree that parents should not just rely on schools to teach their children. Also she's right that many parents do extra at home but don't tell.

MajorCarolDanvers · 07/04/2023 10:31

I can teach my kids life skills, about the world, current affairs, history, geography

But phonics, grammar, maths - don't have much of a clue.

I also have the advantages of comfortable economics, stable family. No physical or mental Iill health.

It's not as simple as is made out.

Natsku · 07/04/2023 10:57

I do teach my children as well but we live abroad so teaching them to read and write in English is down to me so I do that but also used to do 'summer school' with DD when she was younger, to teach her British history (as she won't learn that in school) and stop the summer slide in maths, and that was when I did my English teaching too. I'll do the same with DS once he's school age, although I've already started with the reading.

Otherwise I think that it's my responsibility to support their learning by making sure they do their homework and study for tests, and if they get stuck or don't fully understand something I try to help (usually happens with DD's maths homework!)

At the 'meeting the teacher' day before DD school parents were given a list of things the teacher wanted us to teach our children before they started school. Things like tying shoe laces, putting their hands up to ask questions, waiting for their turn, eating with a knife and fork and clearing their own dishes away and, memorably, peeling potatoes

Cantstaystuckforever · 07/04/2023 21:51

FrodisCapering · 06/04/2023 17:12

@Cantstaystuckforever By Orchard games I don't mean playing in an actual orchard...I mean the ones that are available for £5 in Tesco!

The Spanish and swimming lessons are a priority. Our phones are getting on for five years old, we have an old car and the Spanish trip has really only cost us flights on a low cost airline because we have family here.

All the museum trips are free and we get lots of books from the library or from the Works in a bundle.

Yes, the education is expensive but that's a choice we've made. We were looking at holidays for next year the other day and couldn't believe that people would spend 6k for a week for two adults and two kids. We'll probably be camping!

We tend to eat around 6-6.30. I think a lot of people are home by then. Not everyone, granted, but many people.

I was indeed aware of Orchard games. I'm aware of the Works bundles too, they're a lot cheaper than Waterstones but not that cheap, and certainly not the local library.

Are you also seriously trying to imply that people are (unlike you) choosing to go on holiday instead of privately educating? Maybe a few, but rare. You mention a £6k holiday, which is expensive, but still wouldn't cover more than a term of fees plus uniform at a bulk of private schools. You have multiple children in those schools - so exclaiming about a holiday is not so different from Boomers explaining that 30-somethings don't have houses because they buy too many avocados and Netflix subscriptions.

Sometimeswinning · 07/04/2023 22:11

I really like her honesty!

We're living in a world where some children in their class have not got a clue. They, regardless of this, move up to the next year. They then fail.

I work full time but I always have things set up for my children after school. I joined Twinkl so I could teach my children myself. There is no excuse in my opinion.

I'm not super mum or anything. It literally takes less time than it does to write a reply on mumsnet!

JustAnotherManicNameChange · 07/04/2023 22:23

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BendingSpoons · 07/04/2023 22:28

I didn't teach my eldest to read before she started school. It's not necessary. If they can then great, but it is taught in Reception so it's fine to wait until then! She did know her letter sounds though, which you might be including in this.

We have listened to her read pretty much every day since she started school (now year 2). She quickly became one of the top readers, presumably due to the amount of practise she was getting. Some children in her class read less than 10 times over the year at home.

I agree it is important to support at home but I'm not sure there is a need to rush ahead of the curriculum. My DS is already starting to read in nursery after seeing his sister practise so much, but he'll still have to sit through the same phonics lessons next year.

BendingSpoons · 07/04/2023 22:31

In my previous post I meant to quote the post commenting on parents who didn't teach their child to read before school, but messed it up!

Boomboom22 · 07/04/2023 22:41

I agree parental investment is most important. Her school progress 8 score is 2.27. That's unbelievable! But I still wouldn't send my kid there and tbh the tail of sen kids in other schools likely drags down p8. I see any school getting -0.2 as not bad and I'm a teacher.

Boojabooj · 07/04/2023 22:57

MajorCarolDanvers · 07/04/2023 10:31

I can teach my kids life skills, about the world, current affairs, history, geography

But phonics, grammar, maths - don't have much of a clue.

I also have the advantages of comfortable economics, stable family. No physical or mental Iill health.

It's not as simple as is made out.

She never said it was ‘simple’ though. Merely that everyone else was doing it.
On a deeper level it might also be more about the attitude towards education. Even my illiterate grandmother took a great interest in talking to me about schoolwork. She used to watch like a hawk and tell me to draw straight lines!

We can lobby for long term change etc yes but the reality is, right now. Teachers are overwhelmed, spend more time on behaviour management (especially with appalling SEN support). All well and good saying it shouldn’t be this way, but it is. So what are you going to do?

Some more support for those who benefit on a community level would probably help with the issue rather than saying it’s not the schools job. I know in my immigrant community parents have banded together to give some less well off/able members free tutoring. But it is culturally acceptable for us. My British DP considers it ‘hothousing’ and ‘putting pressure’ so I don’t know how many parents would even take up something like that.

Boojabooj · 07/04/2023 22:58

*sorry, saying it IS the school’s job.

Marmaladesarnie · 07/04/2023 22:59

If all parents parented effectively then teachers would be able to teach effectively.

At the moment a large proportion of parents aren't able, capable or willing to parent effectively and therefore teachers are unable to teach.

If I were in charge, parenting lessons would be available to all with no stigma attached. Expectant parents would be offered counselling to break some cycles and all families would be given the opportunity to have experienced parenting mentors or a phone line to speak to someone when you're not sure what to do for the best.

There would also be financial incentives for parents to be around for their children (with reduced impact on career prospects or pension contributions) - this coming with some strings that parents take children along to groups or classes in local children’s centres where they can be supported.

As a full time teaching mum I feel I am having less and less positive impact on my students - due to exam pressure, behaviour management, extreme disinterest from the kids
and as a result of working out of the house I’m unable to be around for my own children who I could be having a huge impact on. This is one reason of many why I have handed in my notice and there will be once less maths teacher in my school.

Sometimeswinning · 07/04/2023 23:00

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Nope. Normal, run of the mill type person. But my kids education is pretty high on the agenda. I work in a school. I'd be worried if I had children in primary school right now.

Boojabooj · 07/04/2023 23:11

Marmaladesarnie · 07/04/2023 22:59

If all parents parented effectively then teachers would be able to teach effectively.

At the moment a large proportion of parents aren't able, capable or willing to parent effectively and therefore teachers are unable to teach.

If I were in charge, parenting lessons would be available to all with no stigma attached. Expectant parents would be offered counselling to break some cycles and all families would be given the opportunity to have experienced parenting mentors or a phone line to speak to someone when you're not sure what to do for the best.

There would also be financial incentives for parents to be around for their children (with reduced impact on career prospects or pension contributions) - this coming with some strings that parents take children along to groups or classes in local children’s centres where they can be supported.

As a full time teaching mum I feel I am having less and less positive impact on my students - due to exam pressure, behaviour management, extreme disinterest from the kids
and as a result of working out of the house I’m unable to be around for my own children who I could be having a huge impact on. This is one reason of many why I have handed in my notice and there will be once less maths teacher in my school.

I feel sorry for teachers these days. Expected to be substitute parents, police, therapists. It’s not just about ineffective parents either you see on this forum every single thing related to a child it’s ‘inform the school’. Since when did they become a one stop social care and disciplinary centre?
A lot of my teacher friends are leaving in droves. At work we have had a staggeringly high number of teacher/HCP career changers. Cannot blame them.

Natsku · 08/04/2023 07:10

We're living in a world where some children in their class have not got a clue. They, regardless of this, move up to the next year. They then fail.

This is a problem. In exceptional circumstances, when a child really hasn't grasped the basics they were supposed to learn in that year and extra support hasn't helped, then they should repeat the year. DD has a boy in her class that is a year older because he had cancer in 1st grade and missed a lot of school so he repeated 1st grade. He's not the only one in the school, there's at least one other. It's rare but sometimes it's better than moving the child up with their peers if they are so far behind they won't cope.

Happyhappyeveryday · 08/04/2023 07:19

I believe that every parent has a duty to help with reading, spelling and basic maths.

Original poster

Bláthannabuí · 08/04/2023 20:18

FrodisCapering · 06/04/2023 16:28

I absolutely agree with her.
I taught for 15 years in a variety of secondary schools and, believe you me, children are at a massive disadvantage without parental input.

Our children (4 and almost 3) attend extra Spanish lessons once a week. We supplement this at home and with visits to family in Spain. We are actually here at the moment and have bought a heap of books and question cards for them.

I'll be asking for my Reception child's scheme of learning for the year and ensuring we supplement history through visits, discussion, crafts and books.

I've taken advice on how to help with his writing and am working on this with him.

We regularly visit the science museum and have lots of maths resources...scales, fraction games, counting games and workbooks. We do simple addition with my eldest all the time because he likes it.

We listen to my eldest us tell us a story most nights - he can't read yet but we also read to him and ensure there are piles of books in every room of the house for both children to access.

We take them swimming, as well as pay for swimming lessons.

We eat together at our table every night and talk. We usually play Orchard games afterwards.

I'll do whatever I can to help my kids thrive.
They will be privately educated and have access to great facilities but we will do everything we can at home.

We both work full time too, so it can be done.

They sound like very lucky kids & will thrive @FrodisCapering . Thanks for you honest answer & enjoy the rest of your hols☺️

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Original poster

Bláthannabuí · 08/04/2023 20:24

MacarenaMacarena · 06/04/2023 16:54

I was a teacher, and I prioritised the children in my class over my own family (I don't recommend this). I worked very hard, provided lots of extra curricular opportunities (in my own time), got the kids work published, winning local and national competitions, performing in charity fundraising concerts and municipal events, on tv... But every one of those children needed their parents to be supportive, interested in everything they were learning and proactive in finding additional hobbies and interests for them if they were going to have a chance of reaching their potential. Talking about the environment, going to the library, enjoying volunteering locally - all these things can be free if parents can't afford scouts, tennis and violin lessons. I expect Ms Birbalsingh would wish parents to focus narrowly on academic subjects, but from a child's perspective learning is a much bigger thing than pie charts and Florence Nightingale - they benefit from growing up in a home that values leaning and promotes confident discussion about everything.
And she's right about other parents not telling you... It's a survival instinct thing - we naturally want to give our own children an edge when we can, and their peers are the future competition. It's natural not to want to share all our efforts, or to risk being judged as pushy or entitled for encouraging children to learn music theory, money management or join. the local embroidery group, but parents risk missing out on opportunities to enhance their children's lives in many ways if they think children's learning is 100% sorted at school.

Agree completely that other parents don't tell but the kids do to one another 😁 however you are correct those kids that are doing the extra little bit or pushed the extra little bit do thrive.

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Original poster

Bláthannabuí · 08/04/2023 20:40

Sometimeswinning · 07/04/2023 23:00

Nope. Normal, run of the mill type person. But my kids education is pretty high on the agenda. I work in a school. I'd be worried if I had children in primary school right now.

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Great reply. And what the principal is saying in a nutshell. Parents absolutely are extending & broadening their childrens education outside the classroom. Working parents too as often their kids education is their top agenda.
Where I live so many parents give out about the schools yet their kids are running around outside after school in their uniform until 8 o clock! In quickly for dinner half way through... Alot of learning could be done in those hours after school but it's easier to bitch & moan about the school.

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FrodisCapering · 08/04/2023 20:49

@Bláthannabuí thanks for your nice response.

Newuser82 · 08/04/2023 20:50

It's an interesting topic to debate really. And I have to say from my point of view it is much easier for parental involvement of finances are not as tight. For instance I heard somewhere that there are a considerable amount of children who have no books of their own at home. Yes you can go to the library (providing you have transport or money for transport) but some kids have literally not one book.

Board games are again useful to teach turn taking, counting etc. Obviously cost money.

We are lucky in the fact that if my kids want a book and the library doesn't have it we can buy it, we can buy numicon for my 4 year old to help with maths. Orchard toys games to help learn colours, spelling, sums. We can go to museums which promotes discussions and further reading. We have the internet and tv to watch educational programs and videos.

Some people (especially now with the cost of living crisis) can't afford extras like the above which is bound to put some kids at a disadvantage.

Also to consider is the educational level of some parents. If they didn't have the best education they may be unable to help their child learn at home or maybe not prioritise the importance of education..

I think overall the teachers comments are right however it is a very problematic statement to make as some parents just aren't in a position to do it!

Croissantsandpistachio · 08/04/2023 21:12

I've found it really intersting to compare my 2 kids' experience of KS1. DC 1 attended a standard cookie-cutter academy. Phonics was well taught. We read copiously with the kids anyway and DC1 was reading independently and fluently by the end of year 1, even including covid stoppage time. The fundamentals of phonics teaching were there, the materials were really good and leveled properly and it was therefore dead easy to supplement with 20 minutes a day.

DC2 has been in a frankly appalling international school since the end of nursery. The phonics has been diabolical, no proper materials and virtually no teaching. She is so behind her peers in the UK. But because the school hasn't done the basics, it's very difficult to scaffold on top of those- we have no idea what she's done, where the gaps are and she then gets very cross with us when we do flash cards etc as she either finds it very hard or way too easy. We've had similar issues with maths- I understand Singapore maths approaches but they haven't been consistent so it's very hard to teach at home.

Couple that with the kids being out of the house from 07.30-4.30 and therefore knackered, it's hard to catch up.

The broader point in all this is that where you are using approaches that need some structure in their approach, the school needs to provide that structure or it's so difficult to catch them up and support at home. Most parents cannot provide a structured phonics or maths programme at home.

I also want them to do free play, exercise, be creative, be outside and relax. I don't want to cram formal learning into every second of the day- there's so much other learning to be done.

JustAnotherManicNameChange · 08/04/2023 21:20

Newuser82 · 08/04/2023 20:50

It's an interesting topic to debate really. And I have to say from my point of view it is much easier for parental involvement of finances are not as tight. For instance I heard somewhere that there are a considerable amount of children who have no books of their own at home. Yes you can go to the library (providing you have transport or money for transport) but some kids have literally not one book.

Board games are again useful to teach turn taking, counting etc. Obviously cost money.

We are lucky in the fact that if my kids want a book and the library doesn't have it we can buy it, we can buy numicon for my 4 year old to help with maths. Orchard toys games to help learn colours, spelling, sums. We can go to museums which promotes discussions and further reading. We have the internet and tv to watch educational programs and videos.

Some people (especially now with the cost of living crisis) can't afford extras like the above which is bound to put some kids at a disadvantage.

Also to consider is the educational level of some parents. If they didn't have the best education they may be unable to help their child learn at home or maybe not prioritise the importance of education..

I think overall the teachers comments are right however it is a very problematic statement to make as some parents just aren't in a position to do it!

Exactly, the parents that are ABLE to , already do most of this.

The ones that can't for whatever reasons, are just being made to feel like shit by "should" and "musts" and "oh it's just a game and a holiday, and a museum and .. and ...and.. " people.

The ones that won't, well they don't give a shit anyways, especially not about the likes of Katharine Birbalsingh or the sanctimonious "Aren't I so much better than you?" Twats on here.

The real disgrace is that it shouldn't be a matter of luck. All children should receive at least an adequate education regardless of postcode, background or financial situation. The fact that they don't is the real issue, not that Ferguson only does fencing and Japanese and missing out on chess club. It shouldn't be a fucking lottery.

MyDarlingClementine · 08/04/2023 21:21

@Postapocalypticcowgirl

They need to change the structure of primary education because it all happens there!
No dc unless profoundly unable too should leave primary without their tables and fhe basics of the big four.
Same with reading, no child should leave primary unable to read.

There is no flexible system that kicks into place to help stragglers. I know of a few school that even have sen specific staff working in them and they are told off for trying to use sen style help.

How inverted and ridiculous is that.

MyDarlingClementine · 08/04/2023 21:25

@JustAnotherManicNameChange

I agree it shouldn't be luck and ideally dc should at least leave primary with the basics without needing a parent to intervene.

However I was able to intervene and I did but still quite late unfortunately because I was naive and trusted the school. I did think there would be a system that kicked into place. And I was told to keep waiting.

Newuser82 · 08/04/2023 21:28

@JustAnotherManicNameChange I couldn't agree more. Also as a side topic the same should be said for healthcare! We paid privately for cbt our eldest a few years ago. It makes me feel so guilty that many, many kids are waiting for literally years for any kind of help on the nhs. Obviously I'm glad we could help our son and it really did transform his life (and ours) but this kind of treatment should be readily available to every child!