He can’t be a happy child?

[Isitmeanttobethishard]

DS7, eldest child in the family.

Hates singing happy birthday on other people’s birthdays, hates “forced fun” type activities that other kids seem to love. When I say hate, no meltdowns or tears - just grumpy and stubborn. Hates smiling for photos, hates doing “cheers”. Any group/social norms.

He finds it funny to talk about killing, punching, shooting. Will say he’s kidding when pulled up. Doesn’t actually physically hurt anyone. Similarly “jokes” about things being “rubbish”, or “the worst”. Again, says he’s kidding if pulled up.

DH seems to think he’s a happy boy. I think he’s at best oppositional, at worst, very anxious and unhappy. No idea how to help him.

Your first paragraph suggests he doesn't like being the centre of attention and is a little self conscious which is fair enough.

The second paragraph not so much. Where is he getting these ideas from re killing/shooting? How is he at school? Have you spoken to any health care professionals about him?

How is he socially? For example, does he have any close friends, does he go to any clubs, is he playing/interacting with peers in a developmentally appropriate way, etc?

First port of call would be to speak to school after the holidays and get their take on it, see if they've noticed anything or if there are any support measures they can undertake. I'd also see if there is an Early Intervention Hub for your area (try the children and families section of your local council website) or the School Nursing team.

Yes he’s on the never ending pathway for neuro developmental assessments, his dad has ADHD. At school he needs to be finely managed. Never aggressive but listening and answering back can be problems. Academically very good, ahead if anything. Small group of close friends.

I would definitely speak to school and see if they’ve noticed anything unusual, explain what you’ve said here. Then speak to a GP, because there are a few red flags there that suggest he isn’t reading social cues and norms as perhaps he should. Sorry. I don’t mean to sound alarmist.

Could you elaborate about the "killing/shooting" does it seem age-sppropriate or concerning? e.g. my DS1 (nearly 7) likes all things army/star wars/nerf gun related but the way he talks about them doesn't seem worrying if that makes sense.

Sorry - I’ve just seen you’ve updated the thread!
Is there any way you could go to a private specialist in ADHD/ASD? In my experience (mother of ADHD and ASD children and ex teacher), the sooner things are in place the better. It’s all very well and easily manageable when they’re doing this aged 7, but very different aged 15, say.

I work with children who have SEN and your OP pinged my radar a little which is why I was asking.

I'd push the issue with the school SENCo and see what support they can offer in terms of social boundaries, social communication (particularly intention of words vs impact of words, i.e, the "jokes" he's making) and self-esteem. Social stories and a now-next approach might work for "forced fun" type activities, for example letting him know in advance where you're going, why, and what will happen while you're there alongside reassurance that he doesn't have to join in if he doesn't want to (e.g., singing happy birthday).

I’ve been in touch with the SENCO and class teacher, they do put things in place such as movement breaks, little reminders. In terms of the social communication and self esteem, they said they would do group work for the former but I haven’t heard anything since. I’ll follow up on that after Easter. Otherwise they are on the same page with us in that they think he is not typical but they don’t think he needs anything above and beyond little adjustments.

The killing etc is difficult to describe. It’s playful and jokey but it’s not, is it. Because it’s violent. I’m struggling to think of a concrete example sorry even though it happens a lot.

Glad to see that he's on the assessment pathway. Your post rang bells. I used to have a neighbour whose son exhibited similar behaviour to your son. I found his obsession with killing and violence quite difficult to deal with on the odd occasion I looked after him for an hour or two. He couldn't bear other people singing, either. He eventually had an ASD diagnosis.

What's your home environment like or his dad like? I know often a lot of boys can grow up in quite a macho environment, play punching, talking about being tough etc. It doesn't always make it easy to socialise.

@Yazo his dad is definitely not “macho” in that sense. We’ve had issues of bickering for sure as DH can be very impatient (he is working on this since his ADHD diagnosis) but no sniff of violence or even “macho” behaviour.

Many people dislike 'forced fun', the Happy Birthday song; smiling for photographs, etc. May mean that someone's a bit of an introvert, but not necessarily unhappy.

As regards the ''shooting' comments- it depends a bit how intense and detailed it is. If he's obsessed with detailed violent fantasies- it's a bit different from if he just says casually. 'I could shoot X!' Also does he have friends who like playing games (online or in person) with an element of imaginary violence?

Is he in general very withdrawn, quarrelsome, bad-tempered or anxious? If so, it might mean a problem. Otherwise, probably he's not seriously unhappy; though, if there's possible ADHD, he could be frustrated by it.

Does DS have much screen time?

@ToWhitToWhoo no it’s not detailed or graphic. He and his friends in school like role play games so I think there’s lot of that sort of play. Both friends have older brothers so possibly exposed to more than DS (eldest child) is in terms of more violent films/games so there’s a good chance that comes into their play I guess.

It’s hard to say about those traits you ask. He can be very defiant and gives a lot of attitude, answers back. He can be really enthusiastic about things he is excited about/enjoys, but he can also be very negative. He’s quick to be frustrated, very quick.

@Coffeellama he doesn’t have all that much screen time in term time as he has activities/clubs several week nights. Average of about 30-45 minutes of TV on weeknights, and he’s allowed more on the weekends and a bit of play on his Nintendo Switch (he only has age appropriate games, Mario etc).

This sounds a lot like my autistic child.

Sounds like oppositional definitely acne disorder, my eldest was like that at that age. Now 15 and actually turning into a decent person but it's been a long slog and the younger years were tough.

Sorry the word acne slipped in there, ignore that word x

Is there a sport he likes? Maybe a martial art would be good for him. Or do you think a group activity like that would be "forced" fun and frustrate him?

I think the killing shooting talk is coming from somewhere and is unusual. It sounds like he is watching in appropriate utube/tv/video games. The not liking group singing etc is unremarkable to me as I know lots of children like that, expressing things as “the worst” etc is something you can correct by teaching him better manners as he gets older. 7 year olds are a bit hit and miss on who to/when to express their boredom.🤣
Realistically regardless of neurodiversity you just need to help him get along. It will be harder work to raise him but he just needs better ways of presenting himself.

Sounds a lot like my autistic child too. Not that I’m internet diagnosing anyone. My DS dislikes forced fun, but is very enthusiastic about things he enjoys. Hates people singing, gets frustrated very quickly when things done work like they should, can be negative (particularly about himself), and is defiant. - will answer back (usually when he’s getting stressed or overwhelmed).
he has a great sense of humour and loves a good joke, but his own often fall flat because he’ll say things that to him seem like a joke (like saying he’ll punch someone in the face), but when he’s pulled up on that he’ll say he’s only joking. I’m not sure he fully understands what makes a joke work sometimes.

Is the talking about killing something to get you to react? Do you react? Is his behaviour rewarded with attention? I would yawn and tell him it’s boring and change the topic. Not engage further with killing talk and act disinterested.

if he is genuinely obsessed with killing (obsessive behaviour is often linked to autism) he may need professional input. Try and steer him into more healthy hobbies which interest him. Also consider which online games he and his friends have access to. Is he being influenced by one child gaming or film habits? Has he kind friends he can spend more time with?

@ipswichwitch that is just like DS! He will “joke” about punching someone in the face/shooting someone etc. It’s not that he’s obsessed with violence, more that it’s incorporated into his “jokes”.

@chipswitheveryting I really worry about ODD as I know it’s linked with ADHD. So worried, about it worsening/him developing conduct disorder. How did you manage to help your DS turn it around?

@AspiringMermaid he does lots of clubs/activities. Some he enjoys more than others, sometimes whinges about going but always really happy/buzzing coming out.

"Jokes" about inappropriate subjects are fairly common with autistic children. Humour is subjective and very nuanced so when you have a neurodevelopment condition that makes it difficult to read social cues it can lead to these sort humour 'misfires'. My DC went through a (long) phase of saying silly things that he thought were jokes, particularly when he was trying to puzzle out sarcasm, it was like he had to try it out over and over while he figure sour how it worked but in the meantime he was saying really unkind or tactless things and when challenged he would say he was just being sarcastic.

Gentle reminders every time that it's not appropriate to make jokes like that and a swift redirect worked for us. We also bought him a children's joke book so he could learn some jokes to keep in his "social toolkit".