To think that universities giving out unconditionals/nominal offers to everyone just devalues even going or having a degree

[Saygoodday]

DS is applying this year. He’s applied to and got offers from a mixture: 2 RG’s, 2 that require BBC and one post 1992 university that has given him an unconditional offer. Obviously not everyone can be ultra academic and there is a place for vocational qualifications and courses with lower entry requirements within the university system, this is not a case of snobbery or advocating that all universities should require four As. However, Lincoln this year has seemingly given out unconditional offers to literally anyone who has applied, I recently saw another university that would make offers for LLB (hons) Law for 64 UCAS points, etc. Lincoln in particular, it’s about an hour from me, has become a favourite for kids who’ve done no work for their a levels who know they will still get into uni. It’s not just Lincoln there are a big number who will take students basically with any results. To me it doesn’t feel at all fair that those who’ve done no work should get the same qualifications as someone who gets A’s. It feels like it just devalues the whole idea of going to university and getting a degree if you can just get one despite being on for terrible grades in your a-levels. Aibu?

Not sure why I am googling for a hypothetical!

You have answered- you think someone wit that profile should do an apprenticeship.

Being accepted onto the course doesn't mean they are gifted a degree. Circumstances may mean they haven't had the opportunity to gain high scoring A levels. This does not however mean that those people don't have the ability to get a good degree.

Higher education is not likely to make the situation better for that hypothetical student though. They’ve no particular interest or aptitude. They’ll get into a lot of debt for no reason and (like many such students who have just gone to university because… that’s what you do) may well struggle with motivation and just not do very well.

Part of the problem that successive governments have sought to use universities as kind of waiting rooms/holding tanks for young people
so they don’t appear in the unemployment stats.

But they might develop an interest or aptitude at uni?

Do you have another suggestion? I'm just intrigued.

I did go away and Google my area obediently, plus 20 miles. It might not be the right time of year but school leaver jobs and apprenticeships turned up RAF gunner, RAF chef ( neither local) and shifts at Tesco.

The local, not even been mentioned in the hit list of shit unis!, has a smattering of degree apprenticeships but I appreciate those could be done further afield.

IME, these kind of students are much better at finding direction and interest in a very basic job than at university.

University is very expensive. What’s more, it requires a lot of dedicated effort to do well. And, this bit is crucial, the government only gives you one chance at higher education funding.

The thing that used to depress me most as a lecturer were the students who clearly had no idea why they were at university and who were just wasting the only chance they were going to get at higher education and incurring loads of debt for no reason. This could be 1/4-1/3 of a large year group. In first year, before some of them saw sense and dropped out, it might be nearly half of the students.

Every single one of those students would have been much better served by doing anything but going to university. They could have grown up a bit, found out who they are and what their aptitudes and interests are, and then gone to university with purpose at some point down the line. They’d probably have done really well as mature students who knew why they were studying and, therefore, had the motivation to get them through all the studying.

So many of these quite lost students struggle more with self esteem and mental health because they’re just drifting along and not doing well. It gets more challenging and they don’t have the motivation to force themselves to read difficult material or do the work. They get more and more negative feedback - but they don’t see other possibilities. they feel they’re letting themselves and their families down. That everyone will be disappointed with them for not succeeding at this. And retention-obsessed universities don’t encourage their staff to sit them down and tell them that they can just not do it.

Frankly, it’s unethical. I would never advise that hypothetical student to go straight to university from school. They should definitely take a longer route, pass go (possibly several times) and make a decision to get a degree if they feel it would be useful later. But the social
narrative, the school system and so on just don’t support this.

I really haven't met many young people who have found themselves between ages 18-21 whilst living at home, doing some low paid fairly demotivating job, whilst many of their friends are away, as it goes.

In fact, most of the ones I have known have gone to uni at 19 instead and just wished they'd gone straight away.

You are assuming the CCC student isn't motivated or keen on learning. This is not always true.

I do teach loads of students who just don't know what to do instead of uni, some alarmingly weak. But I cannot magic other opportunities out of the air.

I went to university in 1976, and was offered 2 EE's by my preferred university - because they wanted to be absolutely positive that they'd get me there. My anticipated grades were great (and I walked away with 4 A grades at A level and a grade 1 A/S level) but the terms of these grades were that the offers went to potnetial students who had so much more than "just" academic excellence taht they brought a more balanced student population. I am fairly positive that Edinburgh hasn't suffered any by making such offers.

Being honest, what has devalued university education is the idea that everyone should have one. There are many better and more appropriate routes to learning that do not involve being academic or spending three+ years in a university; and it is ridiculous that we are churning out graduates with enormous amounts of debt to fill positions that are equivalent to what we thought of as "school-leaver" jobs.

Devaluation of degrees is because of the crazy notion that 50% of youngsters should go to one. That caused the growth in university places, meaning Unis have to give reduced offers, or unconditional offers, to fill their courses.

Unconditional offers themselves aren't the cause of the devaluation!

Devaluation of degrees is because of the crazy notion that 50% of youngsters should go to one.
And Tony Blair also wanted 75% of school leavers to be above average.
Assuming he was meaning mean type of average (mode wouldn't make sense and median is impossible) the only way that could actually work is if the bottom 25% fail really badly. I assume that he didn't really want this and just his maths wasn't spectacularly missing.

Don't personally understand this desire some people have to stop young people getting educated.

I don't think expanding the number of university places is necessarily advancing social mobility. There are a finite number of 'graduate' roles within an economy and producing large number of graduates expecting these roles will only lead to disappointment no matter how well meaning the institutions and how much is spent on glossy marketing.
I think widening participation schemes for RG universities is a more fruitful means of increasing social mobility including contextualisation of grades and increasing awareness in deprived communities.

I don't think the word polytechnic should be an anathema and coupling some institutions with industry and having an immediate vocational focus isn't a bad thing

Big discussion about how HE fits in with our class system if anyone wants to start a thread!

You do realise that ‘education’ isn’t limited to a full-time, on campus degree, right?
The problem isn’t people getting an education. It’s them all being funnelled into the same form, because said form is deemed ‘prestigious’.

And that it doesn’t always help social mobility.

https://www.understanding-inequalities.ac.uk/news-and-blog/a-degree-helps-but-doesnt-guarantee-social-mobility

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-degree-helps-but-doesnt-guarantee-social-mobility-jq8wlslgz

Yes. A degree is neither the only or (necessarily) the best way to get ‘an education’.

I remember going into the first year of my prestigious university only to discover that everyone around me had applied for spring weeks… 2 days into the first term!

I didn’t know that for a lot of finance jobs, the majority of places were filled by interns, and the spring internship was the most guaranteed way in. All these other people were clued up before they even set foot in the place.

The careers service was great and I got onto a grad scheme (not the above) in the end. But we had 1 to 1 coaching, CV workshops, lots of employees from various different industries have talks and set up career fairs.

I was lucky, I think to have fallen in with a bunch of ambitious people who gave me the push needed. I failed all my summer internship applications, learnt from them and soared the next year. Attended all the career fairs and talks.

DP’s university by contrast had one CV workshop, a few ‘skills workshops’ and a career portal. Mostly smaller local employers. He was one of the few to get onto a proper graduate scheme from his cohort.

I always say to people do a degree with a placement year, at least for that the uni can usually find you something. Then you have graduated with some experience under your belt.

DD2 was doing a degree which was broadly vocational and during her placement year realised that it wasn't her vocation at all! 😂

I guess such a discovery has merit in itself, though.

A reminder that the terms for student loans change for those starting university this year, with the repayment term extended to 40 years. This was a big factor for my DC not to take a gap year and go straight to university meaning her loan is for 30 years. Aside from this she is moving forward with life after lockdown, missed GCSEs and a big chunk of of year 12/13 spent in some sort of bizzare remote learning isolation roulette. These kids have spent enough time at home in their bedrooms and need to get out in the world. Most students work part time, living away from home, meeting new people with that comes lots of growing up and life experience all equally important to a degree. I cannot see that my DC would have had the same experience by staying at home, although financially we would be a lot better off

I thought unconditional offers were getting rarer due to negative press and government push back.

Though I have been surprised with DD1 who went to a offer day had an unexpected interview and on back of that the department dropped their offer - a grade in two of the a-levels.

She applied to course with her predicted grades in mind but when we spoke to the teachers on p/t evening - one subject said higher grade was very possible and other two said predicted grade was unlikely. Left us all very uncertain - so the offer drop is very welcome.

She still needs to work for the grades which is good for her I think but if she'd got a lower offer initially - they all came back the same - I do think she'd have taken that and compromised - this university and place having been her favourite.

I know University degree shouldn't be needed in many jobs but we have known many who later had to go to university - either OU or in person later in life because lack of one has been made a barrier to their careers.

I also found after getting a degree that in my area pretty much everything needed at least a Masters - area DD1 is looking at is similar though she at least knows this going in and that there is a good option not far from us.

We are in a situation where 4:10 junior doctors plan to leave the NHS in the next 12 months, plus the latest article I could find says 50% of graduates don't work in a field related to their degree. Part of this is because certain degrees have been seen as better than others demanding AAA so the best students apply for them eventho if all were equal it wouldn't be the subject they would pick.

A student who can show great work experience, hobbies, and passion for the subject. But is only predicted CCC or less is more likely to stick at the degree and use it than a AAA student who shows no passion or interest in the subject. Uni's are coming round to this hence the unconditional offers and contextual offers.

I went to an ex poly with not great Alevels as it was accredited and I graduated with state registration to practice my degree. The red brick in the town did the same degree but wasn't accredited. I have friends who went there and have never managed to break into the profession they wanted, as no one wants to put them through the top up modules to get registration.

As a graduate and a manager interviewing graduates, I would love it if we went to say DDD requirements to get into uni and then everything else based on the personal statement so students can show passion and drive in what they want to study.

It’s certainly true that not having a degree is a barrier for some traditionally non graduate jobs.

A friend of mine is a PA with 20 years experience but no degree but loads of project management experience. She’s trying to get a job at my work place as senior admin which she could do standing on her head but they won’t interview her as the essential criteria says needs a degree. Then they recruit 21yos with an irrelevant degree and no experience 🤷🏻‍♀️

Even all the junior administrators have degrees.