Am I being unreasonable in thinking that we are suffering from a collective Stockholm syndrome re the NHS

[Newbutoldfather]

This is inspired by another thread about a mother with a child in pain being kept hours without painkillers without being triaged, and the responses on that thread. However I have also had an awful experience with my own child over the last year.

it seems amazing to me that in one of the richest countries in the world (we still are), people are content to accept substandard care which would embarrass a country with 10% of our GDP.

In France, MRI’s are standard for muscular injury or complex fractures. They happen within a few days and, often, on the day. ( my reference is Paris btw, not sure about rural France). In addition, you always get a same day GP appointment, regardless of seriousness, no hassle, no waiting for an hour at 8AM.

Finally, although there are some real heroes in the NHS, my own experience (and that of the other poster) are that many lack compassion, which is about culture, not money.

I don’t know the ‘solution’. Any solution is multifaceted and will take time. However, if we don’t admit the scale of the problem and continue to say how marvellous free-at-the-point-of-use is, we will never get acceptable medicine in this country for any but the rich.

Also why have the fucking cunting tories not reopened tier one visas??? Every single doctor I saw yesterday was Indian, and they would have come here on a tier one visa! You can privatise and privatise but it’s not going to replace huge gaps in the workforce. No migrants from India/Africa and now no migrants from the EU AND the bastard tories cutting places in medical school! Where do they think doctors and nurses are going to come from?! Are they all planning to fly off to Switzerland every time they need medical help? So fucking stupid and short sighted.

Exactly. Those thinking we'd get better service if we privatised the NHS are DELUDED and I guarantee they couldn't afford it anyway.

Try phoning your bank, mobile phone or utility company these days. They're all private, no? You immediately get a recorded message saying they're experiencing higher than expected call volumes and that you'll be waiting for forty five minutes or whatever if you're lucky.

The reason the French system is superior is because people who can take out insurance (or their employers do) and only people who can't afford to pay have their policies paid for by the state. Similar to Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, Australia - anywhere that isn't the UK.

Most of those countries also have higher government contributions to healthcare than the UK.

Posted too soon.

When I compare my experience with that of people around the world with my condition (myasthenia gravis) I feel very grateful every day for the NHS.
Particularly when I see posts from people in the US. Battling insurance companies, struggling to fund vast co-pays... A lot of them end up in awful financial difficulties

Money is not the magical solution to the NHS people think it is. the NHS needs what money can’t buy.

Has anyone got any plans for funding social care without raising taxes?

Yep

When people say European model do they mean they personally want to pay more?

Plenty of money going down the toilet every day elsewhere that could be used.

From what I understand the richest pay more.

How many staff have left? I see this mentioned a lot but is it loads! You get ones maybe but established consultants with families etc I can't see them upping sticks.

I agree that free means shit but it's FREE so we can't complain.

This.
If there's a Stockholm Syndrome it's inexplicably about the Tories.

Yes, I agree with this. My experience of NHS care in the last 5 years has been poor and a lot of that has been down to the attitude of staff.

Most of my family work in the NHS and if I ever talk about poor patient experience, a few of them will immediately launch into a long a bitter diatribe against the government and patients with equal measure.

When I listen to them, I do think we would be better with reforming the whole thing.

YANBU - The Tories want us to believe the only way out is even more privatisation so playing perfectly into their hands

Yes I think you’re right.

Yet it seems lower income are more likely to say keep NHS.

I don’t see the need for changing the model but when people say fund it better it’s taxpayers, so who is doing the extra funding?

I’d keep the NHS but I’d love to see some change with population health and social care is the real issue. Look at that and the NHS would be far better off.

What we need as healthcare is changing so much. I googled the uptick in hip and knee replacements as we age the other day. It’s huge.

Multiply that and there’s an idea of what is coming our way.

It's salary related everywhere isn't it. So more you make, the more you pay.

It's not just money. Imagine how much time and money would be saved if you could book yourself directly to dermatologist instead of asking GP and then waiting for referral then for booking. That's just one example.
Also baaic denistry is usually cobered under basic healthcare

Hi OP, what do you mean by 'we will never get acceptable medicine in this country for any but the rich.' ? How exactly are 'the rich' getting 'acceptable medicine' or emergency healthcare?

Yours, an NHS worker.

I am aaauming provate insurance

The biggest systemic issue we have is lack of social care. There are about 15k patients in beds who are waiting for discharge due to lack of social care. Sadly we need a social care tax urgently to cover the aging population, until this is accounted for we won't get any benefit in changing how the system is funded.

I agree with others that lots staff are appalling. I was in accident and emergency with a family member who had had a heart attack recently and the casual attitude to the ridiculous waiting times is offensive. Clinicians say they will return shortly and come back 4 hours later, with no apology and no explanation as if we should be grateful. No transparency on what's going on at all. There is no system for following up and communicating with patients during the process. And when you can see them standing around loudly talking about their personal lives It feels like complete lack of empathy and care for other human beings. Lots of people have gone into a career for the wrong reasons.
Primary care is also a joke and is stuck in the dark ages with their systems and could very easily be streamlined through AI but GP partners don't want to invest in technology, they have zero incentive for improving the service. This then leads to crowded A&E and it goes on....

The whole thing is woeful. I think we need to fund social care with taxes. Spend more from the pot on the NHS to increase salaries and overhaul primary care and implement modern scheduling and triage.

@polka,

Well, I can see a private GP same day and, if necessary, get a battery of diagnostic blood tests. Might cost me best part of £500, but I can do it.

in addition, I can get an MRI, if necessary, within a couple of days tops.

Meanwhile on NHS, I could get triaged according to a computer algorithm and probably be offered an appointment in a couple of weeks.

Emergency healthcare isn’t here yet but it is coming. There is a private A&E opening in London which will do triage and x rays and treat basic conditions. I am sure there will come a point when a full U.S style hospital will open. People who can afford it won’t accept the status quo.

I'll always vote to keep the NHS like most people but there needs to be a re-think on how it's going to survive in its present form.

When it was launched, cancer was a death sentence, MRIs didn't exist, hernias involved reconstructive surgery plus months in a convalescent home.

Medicine has moved on, thankfully but the technology and pharmaceutical therapies have hugely evolved and, sadly, it costs way beyond what was originally foreseen. Added to that, we now live way beyond ( most of us) retirement age, well something's got to give.

Training a nurse now costs squillions as opposed to a few thousand. Nursing care has now been replaced by health care assistants.

Drug therapies are eye wateringly expensive and most people don't pay for prescriptions now as so many have exemptions for so many reasons.

So what's the answer?

I used to recruit doctors from all over the world. They came on tier 2 visas, not tier 1.

That's not emergency healthcare though. If you are I or a politician or celebrity, if anyone at all was having a heart attack or stroke, horrible accident or bleeding to death etc, we'd all have to wait for the same 999 ambulance? I don't think the rich are any better off when it really matters? I'm not taking about getting a hip replacement or back surgery, proper emergencies.

@polka6 wait for private ambulance services to set up in more affluent areas. If the nhs cannot function, private services will emerge for those that can afford it.