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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Children choosing teams at school

67 replies

sunflowerdaisyrose · 31/03/2023 14:19

What do you think of this?

One of mine has come home upset about children picking teams in PE at school, I didn't know they still did that. It wasn't that she was chosen last but was chosen on a team with her bully in it so refused to take part and therefore was told off (she's 9)

To me I think the staff should choose teams bit to ensure fairly even teams, not provoking an inflammatory situation and destroying self esteem for those chosen last week after week.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Greensleeves · 31/03/2023 17:26

YANBU OP, this is an obsolete practice and for very good reason. I trained as a primary teacher 10 years ago and it was well known then that this was in the same pedagogical rubbish bin as collective punishment and reading out test scores. There's no excuse for it.

Like many others, I have painful memories of being picked last and the feelings of desperation and shame it caused. I remember reading the poem "Titch Miller" by Wendy Cope in GCSE English and crying, because it brought it all back. Nobody with an ounce of professional integrity would inflict this on children in 2023.

I also disagree with previous posters who say that your daughter shouldn't have objected to being made to work with the girl who is bullying her. She absolutely has a right to be protected from bullying - good on her for standing up for herself, and shame on the PE teacher for being so slovenly and unprofessional.

Nodney · 31/03/2023 17:53

Omg @PowerhouseOfTheCell that happened to me! Mortifying and puts you off sport forever

Original poster
sunflowerdaisyrose · 31/03/2023 22:40

@PowerhouseOfTheCell and @Greensleeves your experiences sound awful, and it's shouldn't be how children are made to feel at school.

@HazyDragon yes, both my daughter and I have, they have put various things in place. My daughter isn't bullying her.

OP posts:
Mumoftwoinprimary · 31/03/2023 22:51

I was generally picked towards the beginning but still hated this practice. It was unpleasant and took for-bloody-ever when we were all shivering in a t shirt and shorts in November.

1,2,1,2… takes less than a minute. The only advantage of picking is that you usually get two fairly equal teams but - assuming the teacher is vaguely competent - it is easy to make sure that Daisy and Emma (who are both in the county hockey team) are in separate teams to each other as are Sarah and Lucy (who haven’t yet figured out how to make contact with the ball). And teams are not teams for life - you can always swap a few round if it is not working!

dootball · 31/03/2023 23:03

Surely part of PE is developing sports leaders of the future.
Who is going to pick teams / captain teams if they are denied the opportunity of developing these skills at a younger age?
Obviously those picking the teams should then be held account for the success of the team they have selected.

KateFeather · 31/03/2023 23:16

gannett · 31/03/2023 15:51

I actually completely admire the OP's daughter for standing up for herself. Of course she shouldn't be expected to be on a team with her bully.

She'll be fine in the adult world, where workplace bullying is taken seriously in any decent company.

Wish I'd had her sense of what's right as a 9yo.

I completely agree with you. Well done to your daughter for standing up for herself.

NumberTheory · 01/04/2023 00:46

dootball · 31/03/2023 23:03

Surely part of PE is developing sports leaders of the future.
Who is going to pick teams / captain teams if they are denied the opportunity of developing these skills at a younger age?
Obviously those picking the teams should then be held account for the success of the team they have selected.

This is done as part of school sports teams in high school where you can discuss the various strengths of different players (and the team you are up against and decide on a strategy. You learn a lot about strategy and tactics, how to inspire, how not to humiliate and how to learn from defeat.

You can't really do any of this as a nine year old taking turns picking out kids from a mixed ability group of half unwilling peers.

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 01/04/2023 01:00

1,2,1,2.... you have 2 teams at the end, simple. Much quicker than going through the rigmarole of who's popular and who isn't (although maybe there are PE teachers who are happy for the kids to waste time on it to fill the lesson out maybe?)

The sporty kids talent will still be seen, and the less sporty kids won't feel like shit (yep, I was in that category, the odd last, usually a second to last)

Well done to your daughter for sticking up for herself too!

thing47 · 01/04/2023 10:53

YANBU OP, this is an obsolete practice and for very good reason.

100% @Greensleeves.

It's also totally unneccesary. DS is a sports coach and he picks the teams beforehand, as part of his lesson planning (and let's face it, sports teachers don't generally have to do the same level of lesson planning as most other teachers). Then at the start of the lesson he just tells all the pupils who is on which team. Another thing he does is to rotate the 'captaincy' so the less sporty pupils get to be in charge – after all, the transferable skills of leadership, tactics, people management etc are just as relevant to the less sporty as they are to the more sporty.

PussBilledDuckyPlait · 01/04/2023 10:58

This was standard practice at my school (1980s) and I was always, without exception, last to be picked. Bullied throughout school and useless at sports to boot. To be honest, I quickly stopped caring; being last to be picked was the least of my worries and I had no actual interest in what team I was on or whether we won.

switswoo81 · 01/04/2023 11:04

@Greensleeves I came on to say about Titch Miller too. That poem stuck with me throughout my teaching career.
I would never ever let children pick a team in primary school.

JudgeRudy · 01/04/2023 11:36

I'm not sure exactly what your issue is. There's the whole issue of whether or not children should be allowed to 'pick a team'. On the whole I'd say the teacher should be managing this but l do think it's OK to occasionally give the pupils a bit of autonomy.
Regards your daughter refusing to join in, then it's reasonable there should be consequences for non concordance. I'm not actually saying she should have played, only she can decide that, but unless the other pupil was actively bullying her in that lesson or there was some sort of approved plan in place than ld ecexpect her to participate in the lesson.
You say your child is being bullied. I find many Anti Bully policies rather odd. People are labelled bullies very easily now, however the consequences don't seem any different to what they were years ago. I think the definition of bullying is so wide now it's almost meaningless. Could it simply be they just don't get on? Maybe your daughter wants to be in that 'friendship group' but 'bully' who's in that group doesn't want her hanging around with them. Is that bullying? Apparently excluding someone is, however as adults we are allowed to exclude people we don't want to be around. The class teacher didn't feel the need to intervene. Assuming your daughter was picked first, then she's effectively excluding 'bully'. If 'bully' was picked first your daughter could have done her best to appeal to the opposing captain to pick her.

As I said, I'm unsure what you're asking. What resolution would you have liked?

PreparationPreparationPrep · 01/04/2023 11:42

Peppermint81 · 31/03/2023 14:56

Ffs

How is this generation going to survive in the world

To be honest I didn't know this was a outlawed.

Isn't it better to alternate the children picking teams so everyone gets a go as a team leader. I'm sure that's what we did. Some choose by ability others choose by friendship but ultimately throughout the term everyone gets a chance to choose and be chosen.

Tidsleytiddy · 01/04/2023 11:46

Peppermint81 · 31/03/2023 14:56

Ffs

How is this generation going to survive in the world

Agree 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

PussBilledDuckyPlait · 01/04/2023 11:52

Isn't it better to alternate the children picking teams so everyone gets a go as a team leader. I'm sure that's what we did. Some choose by ability others choose by friendship but ultimately throughout the term everyone gets a chance to choose and be chosen.

If you are chronically last to be picked, the only time this will change anything is the once when you are a picker.

PreparationPreparationPrep · 01/04/2023 11:58

PussBilledDuckyPlait · 01/04/2023 11:52

Isn't it better to alternate the children picking teams so everyone gets a go as a team leader. I'm sure that's what we did. Some choose by ability others choose by friendship but ultimately throughout the term everyone gets a chance to choose and be chosen.

If you are chronically last to be picked, the only time this will change anything is the once when you are a picker.

Yes. Or usually you have at least one friend and could be picked earlier or in the middle . Not everyone will be last and not everyone can be first.

PussBilledDuckyPlait · 01/04/2023 12:01

usually you have at least one friend

<hollow laugh>

MissJam · 01/04/2023 12:05

YANBU. I’m 38 this year and was one of those always picked last. It has stayed with me ever since and I cringe whenever I see it on TV e.g the apprentice final.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 01/04/2023 12:06

YANBU - the teacher should pick at this age, and in my opinion at any school age where participation is compulsory.

Oysterbabe · 01/04/2023 12:10

I was reminded of a different poem.

When we pick teams in the playground
Whatever the game may be
There's always someone left 'til last
And usually it's me.
I stand there looking hopeful
And tapping myself on the chest
But the captains pick the others first
Starting with the best.
I wish
Just once
They'd pick the teams
Starting with the worst
And then maybe
A girl like me
Could end up being first.

Must have had an impact for me to remember it from primary school.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/04/2023 12:14

YANBU I thought this archaic practice had died out

i was always picked last & it wasn’t character building it was fucking humiliating & put my off sport & exercise for life. I’ve only recently stated exercising properly - I wonder how many ppl were put off sport & exercise at a young age by being humiliated like this.

well done to your DD for standing up for herself OP

Nospringchix · 01/04/2023 12:28

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/04/2023 12:14

YANBU I thought this archaic practice had died out

i was always picked last & it wasn’t character building it was fucking humiliating & put my off sport & exercise for life. I’ve only recently stated exercising properly - I wonder how many ppl were put off sport & exercise at a young age by being humiliated like this.

well done to your DD for standing up for herself OP

Yes, I feel the same. Totally humiliating put me off exercise for years.
This needs to change. In my opinion school PE should be aiming to encourage a love of physical activity/ sport so that everyone can find something they enjoy and consequently continue this as an adult and lead a healthier life.

I feel that whenever this is discussed on MN I can hazard a guess as to which posters were good at sport/ never bullied/ weren't picked last all of the time.

PreparationPreparationPrep · 01/04/2023 12:57

I feel that whenever this is discussed on MN I can hazard a guess as to which posters were good at sport/ never bullied/ weren't picked last all of the time.

@Nospringchix

Your sweeping assumptions are completely wrong in mine and my sibling experience.

We were picked and bullied relentlessly because we were different. We were bullied because of the colour of our skin. From the day we started til the day we went back for our exam certificates.

I knew roughly when I would be picked depending on who was captain. I was often left till last, but it didn't put me off doing my best because I loved the sport. I was easily one of the best players but could still be picked last depending on friendship groups. I remember a time when I was captain most of the time it went well, there was one particular time someone I picked refused to come on my tram because she didn't like black people, it was humiliating but that was her character, it didn't stop me choosing her another time because she was a relatively good player and I loved the game. She would rather pick someone who wasn't as good than pick me because of the colour of my skin. It certainly didn't put me off sport as an adult able to make my own decisions- I would say probably laziness was more a factor.

So not always the way you imagine!

Nospringchix · 01/04/2023 13:18

PreparationPreparationPrep · 01/04/2023 12:57

I feel that whenever this is discussed on MN I can hazard a guess as to which posters were good at sport/ never bullied/ weren't picked last all of the time.

@Nospringchix

Your sweeping assumptions are completely wrong in mine and my sibling experience.

We were picked and bullied relentlessly because we were different. We were bullied because of the colour of our skin. From the day we started til the day we went back for our exam certificates.

I knew roughly when I would be picked depending on who was captain. I was often left till last, but it didn't put me off doing my best because I loved the sport. I was easily one of the best players but could still be picked last depending on friendship groups. I remember a time when I was captain most of the time it went well, there was one particular time someone I picked refused to come on my tram because she didn't like black people, it was humiliating but that was her character, it didn't stop me choosing her another time because she was a relatively good player and I loved the game. She would rather pick someone who wasn't as good than pick me because of the colour of my skin. It certainly didn't put me off sport as an adult able to make my own decisions- I would say probably laziness was more a factor.

So not always the way you imagine!

I'm sorry that happened to you. It was totally unacceptable and the school should have done something about it.
I was always picked last because I was rubbish at ball games due to a disability. Kids made some very unkind comments quite openly during the lesson. The teachers never batted an eyelid and just let it continue.
It saddens me to hear that in some schools today these things still happen.

Exl · 01/04/2023 13:21

Three different issues here.

  1. Schools letting kids pick teams in popularity order. That’s old-fashioned and humiliating and I’d ask that the school stop doing it.
  2. Your child feeling so threatened by a bully that your child is unable to play on the same PE team as her. This needs sorting: either the school/parents find a way to end the bullying, or one of the children needs to leave the school. Having the children in the same class but unable to be near each other is not sustainable for long.
  3. Your child refusing to follow the teacher’s instruction. That is a disciplinary issue for you to discuss with your child: your child isn’t entitled to disobey the teacher just because your child is on the same team as a bully.