Help! A dog one

[ILoveCoffee222]

Not so much an AIBU more a What would you do now? (Sorry it's long)

I have a 10 month old puppy. He's fairly big now - size of a small skinny lab, or maybe a sheep dog size. Since we got him I've walked him every day in a local field, usually 2 or 3 times a day as he's a breed that needs a lot of walking/running. It's a field mainly used by fellow dog walkers. We know most of the owners and dogs now that use the field. The field isn't used for livestock or anything. Occasionally we meet the odd older couple with no dog, or someone out for a jog. I've never seen children in the field. There are local kid friendly parks with slides etc.. where families tend to go with small children. This field is more of a walkers field if you know what I mean! Although of course, anyone is welcome to use it. My own children join me occasionally to walk dog.

Anyway, I've tried to be a responsible pet owner. We scoped out the field before getting the pup to see if it would be suitable for walking. Since getting him we've kept him on the lead if we see a fellow dog walker in the distance and dog is on lead, or there's a walker or jogger with no dog. When we have past the dog on lead, or people with no dog, and are a suitable distance away, we let him off the lead to run around again. Or if other dogs are off lead we let my pup play with other dogs if owners are happy with that.

Often times the field is empty and we have it to ourselves, so I let him run free off the lead and put him back on if I spot someone coming in the distance, or when it's time to exit the field. All good. So far no incident.

Today was a bit rainy so we had the whole field to ourselves for a good 45 minutes. Noone else was in sight. Pup was having loads of fun sticking his nose down rabbit holes and chasing pigeons around, and generally amusing himself, catching his ball etc.. nothing unusual.

The field is surrounded by hedges with gaps in which lead off to small trails, or various entrance/exits to surrounding paths. Today pup was sniffing by the hedges (that's where the good scents and rabbit holes are!) when out of nowhere a small child about 3yrs old, and her mum came through a gap in the hedge. My pup was nearby and ran up to child. Child fell (or my pup pushed her in his excitement - hard to tell). Then followed, understandably, loads of uncontrollable screaming and crying from the small child who was probably terrified. Child's mum grabbed her and picked her up in lightening speed and I tried to grab pup but he was so excited by all the screaming and sight of small kid he kept circling them and wouldn't respond to me. After probably a minute (but it felt like hours!) I managed to catch pup and put him on the lead. I apologised profusely to the mum, who understandably looked mighty angry and concerned for her kid and she blanked me and they walked off. I walked in the other direction with my pup on lead

Anyway, it was a total shock to see them. One minute the field was empty, the next minute the child was there and dog was practically on top of her.

I feel terrible as the child was so upset. If mum is reading this now - I'm so sorry. Thing is, I just didn't see them. If I had seen them coming I'd have put pup on the lead straight away.

I don't think I was being unreasonable as it seems like just an unpredictable occurrance and I did my best.

But - now it's happened, what do I do? Carry on as normal, letting him run free when the field is empty? or keep him on the lead on the off chance this could happen again (odds r really small). He's a breed that needs good long walks and to run and run, so I just don't think keeping him on lead would be feasible. But now this has happened once I feel there is no excuse for it to happen again and it would be my fault if it did.

If you were the kids mum, would you be despising me now?

I'm really shaken as I think this kid may now develop a fear of dogs, but I just didn't see them. They just appeared. Shit.

I agree with these 2 posters.

I don’t have a dog and I don’t particularly like that they are allowed at a lot of places these days, however, the field was empty and if you’re going to go through a bush to get to it then you have to be aware there may be something on the other side and act accordingly.

I would advocate for long-line and due diligence going forward. Perfect recall doesn't exist (although should be continually worked on every day), especially with adolescent dogs who at some points feel like they're regressing to a soul destroying level!

I'm sure people will disagree, but this really is a non-issue. Doesn't even sound like anyone was hurt, just bumped/startled. If that woman knows that route and it's used as you say, she should have been more vigilant/knew there may be dogs or runners etc. All of life doesn't bend to accommodate the presence of a potential toddler. There is fault on both sides as far as i'm concerned; it was an accident and nothing more.

But in the short term while they're a teenage nob head I would strongly advocate private space or long line.

A long line - I'd start with 30ft to get the hang of it then maybe go up to 50ft.

Fixed to a decent harness - by which I mean a Y front design like Ruffwear Flagline, or Perfect Fit or Dog Copenhagen NOT Julius K9 or anything else with a horizontal chest strap (these rarely fit well and impede shoulder movement which isn't good for any dog let alone one still growing).

You can then have that halfway house between on and off lead, by letting the lead drag, and work on recall with distractions.

As for what happened - 50/50 fault there, yes you should be able to recall your dog, but equally, sending a toddler through a gap into somewhere you can't see whats there, whats coming etc etc, also risky. That could have been a kid hurtling along on a bike that ran into the toddler, rather than your dog, or any number of other things.

These things happen because we're all human and no child is born with total awareness of danger, no parent is instantly perfect and no dog born pre-trained - the fact that you're taking sensible steps to prevent such an accident happening again is great and were anyone to make an official complaint, goes massively in your favour. We can't predict every possible accident - we can however take immediate action once something has happened to ensure the same mistake doesn't happen again.

I'd love to know how you manage to achieve 100% recall without actually putting your dog to the test.

Yes they can come reliably when you're at home, or in a secure field with no distractions, and you can practice when you're out with friends and they're distracted by the dogs you're walking with, but that doesn't mean if something unusual crops up they will definitely come back.

Long lines are a pain, look into a biothane one as these are waterproof and don't get tangled or collect sticks half as much! But no retractables seem to stop at about 10m and aren't ideal, though the Flexi giant tape type is probably the best but still won't stand up to a mouthy dog who chews leads

It is scary, luckily as I said it doesn't seem to be either enforced or reported very often, I'm yet to hear of a friendly/over enthusiastic pup being removed or destroyed thankfully, I just know that was introduced a few years ago, possibly part of the dangerous dogs act?

He's still young, he didn't do any damage or have any intent to, he was just excited. Try not to overthink it too much, I'm sure he's absolutely wonderful and just needs a little extra training on distractions. If it was me I would do the look at that training (dog sees something interesting, you treat repeatedly while the distraction is present to start, after doing that a few times reduce the treats and start waiting for pup to look to you for the treat instead of watching the distraction before rewarding) this teaches pup that you are more interesting than that thing over there

IF you loose recall again, don't go after dog to start, start screaming and waving your arms and run in the opposite direction, this gets pup to focus on you and in theory, chase you and leave the distraction

How is there fault on both sides here? The mother and child should be able to walk where they want in a public place without worrying there might be an out of control dog on the other side of a hedge which is going to terrify the child.

Hi.

We did actually put a lot of thought into where we would walk the dog before getting it. We found this field and scoped it out. We went a few times, talked to other dog owners using the field, and all agreed it was a field pretty much only used by fellow dog walkers and a good place for us to walk dog. We spent a lot of time once we got the pup, training him on the lead for recall. I spent time running with him on the lead. We have invested lots of energy training him.

We know most of the dog owners that use the field now, and most of the dogs. My dog and their dogs all play off lead together when we meet up.

My dog is now well trained enough in recall to manage the conditions. As I said before, I'm trying to be a responsible dog owner and if I see someone without a dog (rare, but we do get joggers and couples in the field without dogs some days) or a dog on a lead, I call my dog over and he goes on the lead until we are quite some distance away. Often times we have the field ourselves and my dog plays off lead for ages. It's all been without incident til today when a small child appeared completely out of nowhere and we were all rather startled.

I can see your perspective is that my dog should remain on the lead. I'm definitely considering it, but want to make sure in my head it is worth putting him through that on the off chance this could happen again. Would I stop him playing with his doggy friends off lead in this filed too, when they all meet up?

There isn't a field near here you can hire. But even if there was, not sure I can afford that. Pup goes to a dog club once a week where he plays with a group of other dogs off lead all morning in a contained field owned by the club owners. I could send him there once more in the week and will think about it.

Thanks for your opinions Pattypop.

Avoid retractable leads. There is a great deal of energy stored up in the mechanism to retract the lead and it presents a hazard on its own, and can cause injury to owner and dog. Long lead requires 100% concentration you are constantly looping and unlooping, flipping over bushes etc. It's hard work which is probably why more people don't do it! Never allow the dog to play with or mouth the lead, they don't last 5 minutes with sharp doggy teeth. Don't fight or tug of war over it, just slack the lead, firm no, stern face and stand stock still with no eye contact, that removes any stimulation or feedback to the dog and it's no longer "fun" to play with the lead.

Get your dog used to coming back to you frequently for no reason at all. Random recalls with high value treat occasionally so the dog never tries to second guess why you are recalling - they are so clever that if you alway treat, they will return only for treat, or if you recall always when other dogs around they will look for dogs and actively avoid you when they see one in anticipation of the recall. Also put the lead on and off randomly when you are in the open space/secure field. Always make it fun, when he on the lead, interact with him, lots of happy voice and praise - again to avoid him anticipating, make it an absolute non event for him and he'll happily comply.

I second all of the advice from @Poshjock - used these recall techniques with aforementioned delinquent GSD and they work superbly.
Long lines-meh. You spend most of your time tangled up

If I was with a young child and about to go through a gap in a hedge where we couldn’t see what was on the other side, I would go through first, not my child.

The mum shouldn’t be walking into fields without checking what’s in there. What if there had been livestock behind the hedge? If she wants to go somewhere completely safe with her kid she can take them to the park - or soft play or something - not everywhere has to be suitable for children.

id get a biothane long lead, spend a couple of walks cementing the recall and crack on as you were. A long line takes a huge amount of managing on a walk so you really do need to practice being able to loop it up quickly otherwise you get in a right muddle.

Because the intimation is that this parent went through a gap in the hedge allowing (seemingly) her toddler to be bumbling along in front/out of reach with no regard for what could be on the other side of the hedge - it could have been anything. If they were using this route it may be fair to say that they are familiar with the location, and if they're not, then event more careless. This dog wasn't running loose in the street or in a play park, it was in an area widely and commonly used by dog walkers if the OP's version of events is accurate.

No dog can be guaranteed to have recall 100 per cent of the time. People may claim that their dog does , but they simply cannot know what might cause their dog to ignore them in the future.

Don't beat yourself up - it's just one of those things, noones fault.
It's not nice when kids get scared but it's a part of life (and yes, some kids will develop a fear but majority wont) if your dog was wildly out of control and aggressive then that's an issue but that doesn't sound the case at all. Absolute non issue.

I wouldn't put my dog on a lead indefinitely on the off chance a toddler pops out of some hedges, when it's only ever happened once! I'd potentially opt for a long line if you're worried about it happening again.

It's in the category of one of those things. If a very young child goes through a gap in a hedge, the parent should know what's on the other side - could have been another kid flying along on a bike, someone playing football, anything.

It sounds as if it happened too fast to recall the dog until it was over. Nonetheless, work on recall - though recalling any dog from an exciting situation takes a lot of practice.

Chalk it up to experience and maybe use a longline until recall has improved. That way you can at least reel the recalcitrant one in fast if you need to. Just be aware they longlines present their own risks.

It's not as cut and dried as that. In your scenario, it's very unlikely that anything would be taken further.

The relevant section is here
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/dangerous-dog-offences#:~:text=Under%20section%203(1A)%20of,owner%20is%20present%20or%20not.

In theory Sidking is correct, but in reality it's difficult to prove and there were very few cases prosecuted (although they are on the rise, but with significantly different circumstances to yours).

You don't really want a retractable line as there is always a small amount of pressure that the dog can feel, so you are essentially teaching that (some) pulling is OK. Better to get a long line without a loop on the end so the dog can drag it around with a reduced risk it will catch in anything. I have a 5m one. It does tangle and is a pain in mud, but very useful for training.

Sidking's treat suggestion is good, but won't counter situations such as yours where the dog was startled. Sidking's suggestion can be extended by working on the dog's engagement with you so that it's default is to return to you in any scenario it is unsure of.

Thanks everyone. This has been a very useful thread for me and got me thinking. I will try and invest in a long lead again, and just persevere with the awkwardness of it all! Hopefully I'll get the hang of using it, winding it up etc.. I think I went too long last time (and the retractable.ones are just too short!). I might start with about 20m and once I'm used to it, get a longer one!

Not sure what to do when he meets a doggy friend in the field now as they've largley played off lead together the last few months, but we'll figure it out!

Thanks all for the advice and opinions.

Thanks! Helpful!

As a PP has suggested a good compromise is a trailing long line - I foster dogs and use this until I've trained perfect recall (I'm very fussy about what this means - it means perfect) and even then - especially if they are teenage/pre neutering

This is despite me living semi rurally and often not seeing a soul. Because the unexpected will happen, a deer, a lost horse rider, escaped dog.

It means me and the dog have the best of both worlds - they get to be off lead but I have control if anything happens and their recall is not instant.

Extendable leads are dangerous and the work of the devil. With this solution you can hold or drop the lead and vary the length from close to long depending on the situation. They are great for recall training too - especially when your dog does teenage for 3-6 months - if they ignore you you can stop them short and bring them back so they know <<insert recap we'd here>> means come back now, no exceptions.

You can get them on Amazon - I use a 20-30m one.

Thanks! I'll get a 20m one. I'm pretty sure I got a 50m one or something ridiculous previously, and it was a total nightmare!! 20m sounds more manageable. I'm going to order one now! Good old Amazon!

(Of course I also have to get DH to use it so we r on the same page! We use a whistle too for recall. It's always worked well but just wondering people's opinions on that? I guess if you've forgot the whistle you r a bit stuffed! Generally he comes to whistle or name at the moment, but maybe we've confused him!)

There was a case with a young border terrier puppy who (in play) jumped up at an elderly lady and caused her to fall over and injure herself. The court ordered the dog to be kept on lead in public from now on.
Excessive imo but the law does allow for it.

I walk my dog in a public place which is hilly and wild, but with wide tracks through it, which occasionally have National trust vans or landrovers travelling on them, whenever I spot a car, or small child, I call him back and give him a treat. Now he comes to me automatically if he sees children or cars/ vans, and sits by me waiting for his treat. He hardly bothers with adults or other dogs anyway. His recall is only bad when we get within 20 yards of my car, and he knows his walk is over, so I get him on his lead before we are in sight of the car park.

Let him off for playing with his chums - I would saying leaving it on for running and playing with other dogs is dangerous. If they get their legs tangled in his lead they could break something

I can't tell from your post if this would apply, but because it's now ground nesting season, just in case you weren't aware:

Dogs on open access land

You must keep your dog on a lead no more than 2 metres long on open access land:

• between 1 March and 31 July - to protect ground-nesting birds
• at all times around livestock