NHS equality for disabled staff

[Tooscaredtoorocktheboat]

Hey, name change and sorry about length but don’t want to drip feed and lack of clarity for fear of outing details

particularly interested in hearing responses from NHS staff or anyone who is knowledgeable about equality law

Ive been with NHS for a bit, I’m still on regular probation and have A long term medical condition classed as a disability. So far no issues and probation is proceeding fine with no issues.

I was open and honest & only reasonable adjustments that came up at pre interview stage was hours. After I was offered the job it came out there may a requirement in future for a change to shifts. I told them I couldn’t do it due to disability. The manager seemed a bit pissed off but also said “don’t worry it’s not on the cards yet and we wouldn’t make you do anything you can’t do” so I accepted the job at agreed hours.

after I started I approached the manager about another reasonable adjustment I needed and have had the last 15 years (regards annual leave) and how can I ensure I get the time I need.

I explained I want to use annual leave rather than potential sick because I don’t want to use my sick pay for regular health related stuff due to reducing my sick pay allowance, disadvantage to my attendance record and also put them in the shit by unplanned absences because it puts the service under strain. I know using my annual leave works to manage my condition as I’ve not had to have any sick time off with it for years although I’ve had an unplanned hospitalisation (which resulted in change to annual leave to better manage condition) a fair few near misses and flare ups.

They were pissed off (comments made about wishing they’d known at interview!!). Outcome was I was told to request my AL as soon as allowed too in advance using the normal department process/policy because if I was given reasonable adjustments and allowed to book them separately they could be accused of treating me unfairly as they had to treat ALL people equally (but equality act allows for this if it means preventing disadvantage so work are protected from this accusation ‘anyway) and they were “sure” I’d have the leave I need by following the process (sounds possibly like a first come first served)

I don’t know how annual leave is granted but There’s no guarantee despite the reassurances of it not being a problem I will get what I need when other colleagues don’t even follow the stated procedure (ie requesting too far in advance so if it’s first come first served I’ll not get my leave if people put requests in early before me)

I’m worried I’m going to end up having to take sick days to either manage my condition or even worse end up Flaring up and being ill, which then leaves me a disadvantage. My requested leave isn’t unreasonable (ie not at key service times or all in school holidays - I’m not taking the piss). If I need to take sick cos I wasn’t granted the leave they’ll have maximum number of staff on leave plus me off sick so down on service level (plus anyone else off sick!)

I’m too scared to ask again in case they ditch me at end of probation due to being seen as difficult.

question? are the nhs crap when it comes to disability discrimination and reasonable adjustments for disabled staff?

the aibu?

yabu: you should bring this up now with management and see hr about getting your reasonable adjustments

yanbu: Don’t rock the boat. Wait til probation finished - Take whatever annual leave they give and then take sick as needed then try to sort out later through hr and occupational health when in a stronger employment position

any advice/suggestions?

You shouldn't be taking annual leave as sick basically. That's wherever you go and not 'NHS' have you spoken to ACAS? They are a HR advisory and I'm sure they will say the same thing.

i think you should have looked into this before you started. Some NHS staff are able to work on a hybrid basis and work from home so I think HR is your best bet.

Is your disability managed appropriately by both yourself and your medical team? Have you approached these given it is causing you to take 'planned time off to manage'

Using annual leave as sick leave was an absolute no when I worked for the NHS.

I think what you are asking for will depend on the size of your team and exactly what you are saying you need. They can't give you exactly what you need if it doesn't give other staff any flexibility. The smaller your pool of staff the harder it will be.

The NHS will put the needs of the service first.

Are you essentially asking for short notice AL to manage your conditions if you feel you are going into a flare or in pain etc?

The other option which u may need to explore is a reduction in hours if you haven't already.
There is never a guarantee you will get your annual leave which is in any place of work and again not exclusive to NHS.
Any impact to any role NHS or non NHS job should be declared in your application. They cannot exclude you but they need to be aware.

I work for the NHS and have done for 20 yrs. Emergency AL can be granted in exceptional circumstances- carers leave etc.

Unfortunately you need to use your sick leave for sickness, this is not negotiable where I work, never has been.

If your disability is recognised there are policies in place to protect your sickness record. For example, if you have diagnosed chrones disease, and you have 3 separate episodes of sickness, all related to chrones, this will go under your ‘disability umbrella’ as ‘one episode’. This should mean you do not need to use your AL as sick. You can still claim your sick pay, but the time allowance doesn’t change.

I have several disabilities and work for nhs. I cannot manage full time hours so I have dropped to part time. I am in the process of finalising being able to wfh on days where I feel unwell in order not to have to take sick days. I have only been part time since January this year but I feel so much better, i have planned my leave so if there is more than a month or so stretch without say a bank holiday then I have the odd long weekend to help keep on top of my health and ensure I get a good amount of rest. So far so good. Businesses don’t like you taking a/l for health management or instead of sick leave, and so I have planned around this as best I can.

I don't think the NHS is crap at all, but obviously services and budgets are under a lot of pressure which can effect what is 'reasonable' to provide. What exactly is it you are asking for re annual leave, I agree that you implying you'll take annual leave if you are too unwell to work will ring alarm bells as not really allowed under NHS policy. But if you are saying you'd like the last Friday of every month off to rest and recuperate then I don't see the issue in that, that would be a perfectly reasonable and normal use of leave. But is there a reason it needs to be that particular day, if there's a problem, say a colleague also needs every other Friday for childcare reasons or they need to care for an elderly parent or whatever, could your day off not move to Thursday or whatever, or is there a specific need for the specific days you are requesting?

If it's to do with attending medical appointments, you might want to check your local policy, I doubt they'll want you taking sick leave for those (as if you are well enough to work it's not sick leave) but they may have a policy that for instance it's not annual leave either but the person should take unpaid leave, TOIL or make the hours back up, rather than using annual leave for these purposes, or you may get lucky and a certain amount of paid is provided for? But if you have a lot of appointments your managers might be very happy for you to use annual leave. The thing is as someone who's managed large NHS teams working on shifts/rotas, leave is a hotspot for ill feeling and issues, lots of people will come with specific requests, most of them for very valid reasons and often connected to a protected characteristic that makes them to some degree entitled to 'special treatment' e.g. disabilities, childcare, elder care, pregnancy, religion, public service e.g. reservists and special constables and so on. It's really hard to balance all this and either effectively create a two-tier leave booking system where all the 'special circumstances' people get first dibs and the rest nothing, or say to everyone you all put your requests in the same and we'll endeavour to treat everyone fairly (which as you say doesn't always mean exactly the same) which can leave everyone feeling anxious and lead to tensions and stress in the team if you can't give everyone what they want. I guess what I'm saying is if your managers are good and sensible people, you've explained your reasons and why it will benefit both you and them/the service to be allowed to take your leave as you want to, plus what you are asking is not crazy/unusual/something that would cause a big issue I'd trust them and do as they've asked, put the request in in the normal way and very likely it will come through fine. TBH even when I was managing the aforementioned nightmare leave rotas I very rarely had to turn someone down for a leave request for a normal day shift in termtime, even on the rare occasion too many people had requested the same day I could always find someone prepared to change. It was school holidays, Christmas, Easter and late or night shifts, plus the odd day people knew would be hellish for work reasons that were always over subscribed!

Extra annual leave is quite a big reasonable adjustment to ask for when you’ve just started and you had the opportunity to bring it up at interview but didn’t. YANBU.

OP isn't asking for extra sick leave, they're asking to use AL as sick leave to avoid being paid less.

Did you read the OP?

I meant extra annual leave not sick leave

My experience of the NHS is that policy and behaviour on reasonable adjustments varies wildly from Trust to trust and even team to team.

If you find somewhere that gets it and treats you well do everything you can to stay there.

As a manager in the NHS I think it really depends on where you are. Some trusts are great others not so much.
If I understand your post you are requesting your leave in advance so you can manage your health condition rather than taking sick leave??
From my experience I would say it very much would depend on what this looks like.
For example if you are requesting say 2 days leave once a month for some downtime to support you to manage your condition rather than burn out and flare up I would try and support this. I would ask that you be flexible where you could so for example not always taking a Monday or Friday.
If you need a 4 day break ask for a Monday-Tuesday one month and a Thursday-Friday the next.
If you are asking for leave at short notice this is harder to approve. Once a manager starts approving leave for one staff member it sets a precedence and can lead to frustration and resentment in a team. If this is the case I would look to sit down and understand what reasonable adjustments were needed and look to put a plan in place. This may include short term leave approval but may also include sickness absence days or a reduction in hours.

Also if you aren't in a union Join one and run everything past them.

Also, I appreciate these may not have been the words you used to them, but please don't say things like "I don't want to use up my sick leave too soon" or similar to your managers, for want of a better phrase this is 'triggering' to them, NHS sick leave and other paid leave provisions are generous and this is how it should be, most people don't the piss and only are off when they need to be, but in every team there's an open slacker/CFer who treats each and every paid leave provision as additional annual leave, they take precisely the maximum sick leave they can without being sacked, they have exactly as many domestic emergencies, medical appointments and childcare failures as local policy provides leave for and you can bet your bottom dollar that every year like clockwork a grandparent/aunt/cousin dies just when they fancy an extra day off too 😜.

I'm not saying this is you OP, I'm sure you're very diligent and this is why you are managing things so carefully and planning, and in fact it's people like you that suffer because of the existence of the CFers, they are why we have to have such rigourous absence management policies, but by implying you are 'saving' your sick leave for some future date you might be giving the wrong impression, that's all.

You want extra annual leave or annual leave at short notice?

Re reading your post the absolutely shouldn't ditch you for 'being difficult' they should be supporting your request where reasonable and where they don't feel they can support them they should explain why and work with you to identify possible alternatives.
It does sound a little like they are fobbing you as its hard work. From experience I'd say this may be down to individual managers rather than the organisation

Can you explain this more clearly OP?

Exactly what have you asked for?

You can’t use annual leave when you’re actually sick. Not sure that’s what you meant though…

I was thinking exactly the same. I don't understand what the exact request is OP?

https://www.acas.org.uk/
these may help to advise you.

I don't have enough knowledge of annual leave and sick leave policies to.advise but all I can say from my experience of being a receptionist at a GP surgery was that were awful when I was diagnosed with a brain tumour.
My contract was terminated the next day, before some hasty backtracking on their behalf and I was reinstated. I didn't take any time off sick and got taxis to and from work as I couldn't drive, but the knives were out and it was only a matter of time before they got rid of me for something absolutely pathetic. The only decent thing they did was to put me on full pay till the end of my contract (I was covering maternity leave) about three months later.
I will never forgive or forget the lack of compassion when I was in a complete state of shock. I cried literally all day, and I still think about taking the bastards to a tribunal.
In contrast the next GP surgery to employ me, where I still work, couldn't have been more supportive even though I'm currently on two months sick leave after having surgery to remove the tumour.

I work in nhs with 2 disabilities & agree with PP, it's the CFs who make us all look bad!!

I'm lucky with my current clinical leader as she has given me reasonable adjustments as agreed by occupational health. In fact, if you have certain disabilities you have to have reasonable adjustments. And there's no law to say that you have to declare them to anyone but occupational health at interview. I didn't!! My managers heard from my old manager that there were certain restrictions on my shift pattern that they should follow but I left it a few months before explaining why this was. As I wanted them to get to know me with no prejudices.

Actually- have you been to occupational health? As they can be very helpful. for prescribing reasonable adjustments such as with shift patterns.
The managers allow me time off for appointments- if i can't let them know before the next rota goes out then I take appointments as either annual leave or a manager tries to move my shifts. Your manager should be doing the same for you.
But definitely don't use up your annual leave if you're actually sick - the nhs hate that.

I've had to cut my hours due to a past poor Bradford Score (the bane of our lives).
But seriously because I struggle with fatigue due to medication & with my poor mental health (paranoia around colleagues as an example etc) I can't work more than 3 shifts a week anyway, luckily I get PIP.

And don't forget the NHS is a business now. Make yourself a useful and invaluable resource- so that when they hear your name they think oh thats 'Tooscared' she's our new employee who's shit hot at her job, not 'oh she's the disabled one who wants annual leave'.
Whenever I have to discuss my disabilities with management in a sickness meeting as an example I try to put a positive spin on things by showing I'm doing my best for my health by trying new meds & talking to my consultants.
I show I'm keen to learn new skills and gain new qualifications even though I'm only an HCA. I've made sure I can do things and sort out problems that others can't.
I offer to move wards at times when no one else wants to, and I work extra hard & I'm slower than some due to the meds but conscientious.
So although I lack confidence in my abilities my managers says they think I'm good at my job.

Unfortunately we will soon be re interviewed for newer roles as our Trust is undergoing huge changes but Im determined I will stay positive and get the role I want.

@Tooscaredtoorocktheboat I think as you're still on probation it's best to try to keep your head down, work hard, be extra nice & helpful to everyone & don't rock the boat, annoying as that is. If you can self refer to occ health then do it but if you need a management referral wait until probation is up. Good luck!

@Papergirl1968 that is horrendous!! I'm glad you are in a better workplace now and I hope your health is improving.

Yes thanks, @ArianahX I'm five weeks post surgery and doing really well 😀

Great!

We wouldn’t allow you to use annual leave as sick, you are either well enough to work, or not. Annual leave is to allow you to take a holiday, have a rest, not cover sickness

we would also follow normal triggers for sickness, however an allowance would then be made for your disability. I don’t see how you can book your annual leave to cover your sickness in advance. That means you are then looking at urgent annual leave, however as you say those days are likely to be booked.