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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

NHS equality for disabled staff

123 replies

Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 28/03/2023 17:57

Hey, name change and sorry about length but don’t want to drip feed and lack of clarity for fear of outing details

particularly interested in hearing responses from NHS staff or anyone who is knowledgeable about equality law

Ive been with NHS for a bit, I’m still on regular probation and have A long term medical condition classed as a disability. So far no issues and probation is proceeding fine with no issues.

I was open and honest & only reasonable adjustments that came up at pre interview stage was hours. After I was offered the job it came out there may a requirement in future for a change to shifts. I told them I couldn’t do it due to disability. The manager seemed a bit pissed off but also said “don’t worry it’s not on the cards yet and we wouldn’t make you do anything you can’t do” so I accepted the job at agreed hours.

after I started I approached the manager about another reasonable adjustment I needed and have had the last 15 years (regards annual leave) and how can I ensure I get the time I need.

I explained I want to use annual leave rather than potential sick because I don’t want to use my sick pay for regular health related stuff due to reducing my sick pay allowance, disadvantage to my attendance record and also put them in the shit by unplanned absences because it puts the service under strain. I know using my annual leave works to manage my condition as I’ve not had to have any sick time off with it for years although I’ve had an unplanned hospitalisation (which resulted in change to annual leave to better manage condition) a fair few near misses and flare ups.

They were pissed off (comments made about wishing they’d known at interview!!). Outcome was I was told to request my AL as soon as allowed too in advance using the normal department process/policy because if I was given reasonable adjustments and allowed to book them separately they could be accused of treating me unfairly as they had to treat ALL people equally (but equality act allows for this if it means preventing disadvantage so work are protected from this accusation ‘anyway) and they were “sure” I’d have the leave I need by following the process (sounds possibly like a first come first served)

I don’t know how annual leave is granted but There’s no guarantee despite the reassurances of it not being a problem I will get what I need when other colleagues don’t even follow the stated procedure (ie requesting too far in advance so if it’s first come first served I’ll not get my leave if people put requests in early before me)

I’m worried I’m going to end up having to take sick days to either manage my condition or even worse end up Flaring up and being ill, which then leaves me a disadvantage. My requested leave isn’t unreasonable (ie not at key service times or all in school holidays - I’m not taking the piss). If I need to take sick cos I wasn’t granted the leave they’ll have maximum number of staff on leave plus me off sick so down on service level (plus anyone else off sick!)

I’m too scared to ask again in case they ditch me at end of probation due to being seen as difficult.

question? are the nhs crap when it comes to disability discrimination and reasonable adjustments for disabled staff?

the aibu?

yabu: you should bring this up now with management and see hr about getting your reasonable adjustments

yanbu: Don’t rock the boat. Wait til probation finished - Take whatever annual leave they give and then take sick as needed then try to sort out later through hr and occupational health when in a stronger employment position

any advice/suggestions?

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 10:09

QueenCremant · 29/03/2023 09:45

It sounds like your manager isn’t particularly supportive. If it is already causing you so much stress you may need to consider if this job is worth it. Can you talk yo someone in HR?

It’s worth it. I’m just trying to figure out if I’m being unreasonable in my requests. I really don’t think I am.

and also being relatively new I feel like I should “wait and see” not Rock the boat etc in terms of getting some service under my belt and being in a stronger position employment wise before potentially turning round and saying “I want to speak to HR about reasonable adjustments”

theres literally nothing else worrying me - just the fear of getting I’ll and the implications of having to have sick leave on my employment record. I’ve had a lot of discrimination in the past so In s way I do try to minimise and mask it.

OP posts:
AnnaMagnani · 29/03/2023 10:21

You need to get your Occ Health and reasonable adjustments done now, no trying not to rock the boat.

It sounds like your manager just doesn't understand that you asking for annual leave early is due to disability rather than wanting preferential treatment.

Get advice from your union, follow it to the letter and quit trying to be nice.

QueenCremant · 29/03/2023 10:30

Why are you not wanting to rock the boat when it’s your health at risk?

Of course you’re not being unreasonable in your requests. But either your manager isn’t understanding what you’re asking for or isn’t willing to try and understand.

You need to get this sorted now and not wait till your probation is over. Can you email your manager outlining exactly what it is you’re asking for and ask for an OH referral?

QueenCremant · 29/03/2023 10:34

Have you looked at your Trust policies regarding disability and reasonable adjustments?

Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:04

QueenCremant · 29/03/2023 10:30

Why are you not wanting to rock the boat when it’s your health at risk?

Of course you’re not being unreasonable in your requests. But either your manager isn’t understanding what you’re asking for or isn’t willing to try and understand.

You need to get this sorted now and not wait till your probation is over. Can you email your manager outlining exactly what it is you’re asking for and ask for an OH referral?

because all my holidays for this year are in place and I’m entering a phase of relatively good health I feel that waiting til I’m on more secure footing would be best. Having been a victim of discrimination in the past and knowing how intolerant managers can be added to the fact my current managers seemed to give off the impression they’d wish they’d known sooner I’m reluctant to pursue this right now. Being disabled and needing support in the work place honestly genuinely sucks.

A previous poster indicated that I could be worrying about nothing and that they could be quietly planning to approve them anyway, which would fit with the instruction I’ve been given. I could be seen as a trouble causer for no reason which then gives me a bad name 🫤

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:08

QueenCremant · 29/03/2023 10:34

Have you looked at your Trust policies regarding disability and reasonable adjustments?

Yeah I think I’m firm ground. Seems to be a little bit contradictory in the managing absence policy but then the reasonable adjustments/disability policy seems to firm it up. They shouldn’t take in sick leave relating to disability into account when looking at absence levels as a reason for further action against the employee as that would be classed as discriminatory but disappointingly the trust policies don’t seem to underpin this so it looks like even that would have to go through formal reasonable adjustment requests. Definitely feels like they talk the talk because they have to but they don’t walk the walk

OP posts:
mrsbyers · 29/03/2023 14:12

If sickness is related to disability then it should not be counted in terms of sick triggers also they have a legal requirement for people to have a set amount of true annual leave in a year

Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:17

maxelly · 28/03/2023 18:34

I don't think the NHS is crap at all, but obviously services and budgets are under a lot of pressure which can effect what is 'reasonable' to provide. What exactly is it you are asking for re annual leave, I agree that you implying you'll take annual leave if you are too unwell to work will ring alarm bells as not really allowed under NHS policy. But if you are saying you'd like the last Friday of every month off to rest and recuperate then I don't see the issue in that, that would be a perfectly reasonable and normal use of leave. But is there a reason it needs to be that particular day, if there's a problem, say a colleague also needs every other Friday for childcare reasons or they need to care for an elderly parent or whatever, could your day off not move to Thursday or whatever, or is there a specific need for the specific days you are requesting?

If it's to do with attending medical appointments, you might want to check your local policy, I doubt they'll want you taking sick leave for those (as if you are well enough to work it's not sick leave) but they may have a policy that for instance it's not annual leave either but the person should take unpaid leave, TOIL or make the hours back up, rather than using annual leave for these purposes, or you may get lucky and a certain amount of paid is provided for? But if you have a lot of appointments your managers might be very happy for you to use annual leave. The thing is as someone who's managed large NHS teams working on shifts/rotas, leave is a hotspot for ill feeling and issues, lots of people will come with specific requests, most of them for very valid reasons and often connected to a protected characteristic that makes them to some degree entitled to 'special treatment' e.g. disabilities, childcare, elder care, pregnancy, religion, public service e.g. reservists and special constables and so on. It's really hard to balance all this and either effectively create a two-tier leave booking system where all the 'special circumstances' people get first dibs and the rest nothing, or say to everyone you all put your requests in the same and we'll endeavour to treat everyone fairly (which as you say doesn't always mean exactly the same) which can leave everyone feeling anxious and lead to tensions and stress in the team if you can't give everyone what they want. I guess what I'm saying is if your managers are good and sensible people, you've explained your reasons and why it will benefit both you and them/the service to be allowed to take your leave as you want to, plus what you are asking is not crazy/unusual/something that would cause a big issue I'd trust them and do as they've asked, put the request in in the normal way and very likely it will come through fine. TBH even when I was managing the aforementioned nightmare leave rotas I very rarely had to turn someone down for a leave request for a normal day shift in termtime, even on the rare occasion too many people had requested the same day I could always find someone prepared to change. It was school holidays, Christmas, Easter and late or night shifts, plus the odd day people knew would be hellish for work reasons that were always over subscribed!

Thank you

i Think if they’d been a little more transparent with how they allocate leave and the considerations they take into account and then instructed me
to follow the policy I’d feel a bit more secure (eg like you’ve said they could just be fine anyway or someone else suggested my requesting through normal channels is for show to stop anyone kicking off and they will grant all my leave anyway).

It’s the fact they have this lack of transparency and other colleagues are just blatantly ignoring the leave policy has left me feeling anxious. I get anxiety of my illness anyway as it’s really frightening knowing what’s coming when it deteriorates. I’ve probably got some form of post traumatic stress from previous episodes to a degree and it’s all feeding into the anxiety.

Thank you for your insights.

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:18

mrsbyers · 29/03/2023 14:12

If sickness is related to disability then it should not be counted in terms of sick triggers also they have a legal requirement for people to have a set amount of true annual leave in a year

managing absence policy seems to not discount disability as a trigger from what I can see.

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:20

MelchiorsMistress · 28/03/2023 18:36

Extra annual leave is quite a big reasonable adjustment to ask for when you’ve just started and you had the opportunity to bring it up at interview but didn’t. YANBU.

I’m not asking for extra annual Leave

im under no obligation to have to bring anything up at interview either as it can be used as discrimination in hiring decisions

i got that job on merit and because I was a suitable candidate.

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:29

maxelly · 28/03/2023 18:44

Also, I appreciate these may not have been the words you used to them, but please don't say things like "I don't want to use up my sick leave too soon" or similar to your managers, for want of a better phrase this is 'triggering' to them, NHS sick leave and other paid leave provisions are generous and this is how it should be, most people don't the piss and only are off when they need to be, but in every team there's an open slacker/CFer who treats each and every paid leave provision as additional annual leave, they take precisely the maximum sick leave they can without being sacked, they have exactly as many domestic emergencies, medical appointments and childcare failures as local policy provides leave for and you can bet your bottom dollar that every year like clockwork a grandparent/aunt/cousin dies just when they fancy an extra day off too 😜.

I'm not saying this is you OP, I'm sure you're very diligent and this is why you are managing things so carefully and planning, and in fact it's people like you that suffer because of the existence of the CFers, they are why we have to have such rigourous absence management policies, but by implying you are 'saving' your sick leave for some future date you might be giving the wrong impression, that's all.

Thank you. Yes I’m shit hot at managing my condition 🤣 too scary not too

what I do works to prevent any major flares. It’s still there a lot but I’m a bloody good worker and the fact I’m reliable is because I do the things I need to do to make sure I can be reliable. I have to be at deaths door to not go in ( I was sent home once with a temperature of 38.6 because I felt guilty) It does feel like I have to go the extra mile to make people see past disability and the reasonable adjustments I need. managers definitely like to put you down and use it to beat you up when they want something you can’t give such as a shift change (previous employer). And that’s another reason I don’t want to be out in a position where I end up having to go off sick because I worry it’ll just be “oh we can’t manage this you’ll have to go” even though the levels Of sickness I’ve seen in my short time there are incredibly high.

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:31

Papergirl1968 · 28/03/2023 18:54

I don't have enough knowledge of annual leave and sick leave policies to.advise but all I can say from my experience of being a receptionist at a GP surgery was that were awful when I was diagnosed with a brain tumour.
My contract was terminated the next day, before some hasty backtracking on their behalf and I was reinstated. I didn't take any time off sick and got taxis to and from work as I couldn't drive, but the knives were out and it was only a matter of time before they got rid of me for something absolutely pathetic. The only decent thing they did was to put me on full pay till the end of my contract (I was covering maternity leave) about three months later.
I will never forgive or forget the lack of compassion when I was in a complete state of shock. I cried literally all day, and I still think about taking the bastards to a tribunal.
In contrast the next GP surgery to employ me, where I still work, couldn't have been more supportive even though I'm currently on two months sick leave after having surgery to remove the tumour.

Oh that’s shit!! Wishing you a
speedy recovery my love xxx

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:33

ArianahX · 28/03/2023 19:21

I work in nhs with 2 disabilities & agree with PP, it's the CFs who make us all look bad!!

I'm lucky with my current clinical leader as she has given me reasonable adjustments as agreed by occupational health. In fact, if you have certain disabilities you have to have reasonable adjustments. And there's no law to say that you have to declare them to anyone but occupational health at interview. I didn't!! My managers heard from my old manager that there were certain restrictions on my shift pattern that they should follow but I left it a few months before explaining why this was. As I wanted them to get to know me with no prejudices.

Actually- have you been to occupational health? As they can be very helpful. for prescribing reasonable adjustments such as with shift patterns.
The managers allow me time off for appointments- if i can't let them know before the next rota goes out then I take appointments as either annual leave or a manager tries to move my shifts. Your manager should be doing the same for you.
But definitely don't use up your annual leave if you're actually sick - the nhs hate that.

I've had to cut my hours due to a past poor Bradford Score (the bane of our lives).
But seriously because I struggle with fatigue due to medication & with my poor mental health (paranoia around colleagues as an example etc) I can't work more than 3 shifts a week anyway, luckily I get PIP.

And don't forget the NHS is a business now. Make yourself a useful and invaluable resource- so that when they hear your name they think oh thats 'Tooscared' she's our new employee who's shit hot at her job, not 'oh she's the disabled one who wants annual leave'.
Whenever I have to discuss my disabilities with management in a sickness meeting as an example I try to put a positive spin on things by showing I'm doing my best for my health by trying new meds & talking to my consultants.
I show I'm keen to learn new skills and gain new qualifications even though I'm only an HCA. I've made sure I can do things and sort out problems that others can't.
I offer to move wards at times when no one else wants to, and I work extra hard & I'm slower than some due to the meds but conscientious.
So although I lack confidence in my abilities my managers says they think I'm good at my job.

Unfortunately we will soon be re interviewed for newer roles as our Trust is undergoing huge changes but Im determined I will stay positive and get the role I want.

@Tooscaredtoorocktheboat I think as you're still on probation it's best to try to keep your head down, work hard, be extra nice & helpful to everyone & don't rock the boat, annoying as that is. If you can self refer to occ health then do it but if you need a management referral wait until probation is up. Good luck!

Thank you. That’s really insightful. I appreciate you sharing your experience

i wish you luck in your interview process xxx

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:37

Can I just say a massive thank you to everyone that’s took time to reply and offer advice. I’m struggling to keep up with who I’ve spoken too!

i think it’s very clear I may not have explained exactly what I needed to my manager but I also still feel possibly I’ve been fobbed off a little.

some people have pointed out that they may authorise them anyway and I’m panicking over nothing. This is very true so I’ve decided to take a wait and see approach for now. In this interim period I will be carefully reading any and all trust policies and if it turns out further down the line I’ve been denied any leave I shall be contacting my union rep to discuss my next steps.

if anyone has any further advice please please let me know. Feel free to DM x

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:43

Foreversearch · 29/03/2023 05:25

@Tooscaredtoorocktheboat

  1. Posters saying you can’t take annual leave when sick are incorrect HMRC vs Stringer case law.
  2. The EA 2010 states “20, 3)The first requirement is a requirement, where a provision, criterion or practice of A's puts a disabled person at a substantial disadvantage in relation to a relevant matter in comparison with persons who are not disabled, to take such steps as it is reasonable to have to take to avoid the disadvantage.”
  3. The current leave booking process is a practice that puts you at a disadvantage due to your disability. Booking and having your leave approved in advance is removing a barrier by helping you to managing your disability.
  4. Ask your manager to refer you back to OH, explain they should specifically ask if having leave approved in advance is a reasonable adjustment under EA2010.
  5. As pp have advised you need to be careful how you word discussions around sick leave. As you have found on here it is a sensitive topic as the public sector are often criticised for levels of sick absence. There is a culture of managing attendance and anything that might appear to be seen as an entitlement is jumped on. Some posters have misunderstood that you are actually trying to reduce sick leave by managing your disability.
  6. The Managing Attendance policy will probably have trigger points for sick absence. Good practice is that trigger points can be adjusted for a disability. Usually OH are asked what are the appropriate trigger points for you. This is to recognised that in addition to the usual illnesses etc. a disabled employee may have disability related sick absence. So if you do have to take a day or week related to your disability there is some leeway.
  7. I think you need to put in writing to your manager that you are disabled and require a reasonable adjustment of taking your annual leave as follows (set out dates). This pattern of taking leave enables you to manage your disability. Do not mention sick leave.
  8. Ask HR if the have Workplace Adjustment Passports as this will help you document the requirement to save you from having to explain it each time you get a new manager.

Cheers this is helpful. Appreciate it

OP posts:
Rebel2 · 29/03/2023 14:49

Think your plan is good
I get it - my conditions give me really bad fatigue and I have to be very protective over my time off. So I don't do overtime (can only cope with 40hrs a week) and I don't work more than X amount of time without taking annual leave

NotCopingWell1 · 29/03/2023 14:58

NHS employee here with a disability.

I'm not sure it's reasonable to ask them to let you book annual leave differently to others when you have the option of sick leave. You're not likely to suffer detriment because you'd still get paid and usually disability related illness is not recorded against absence management. As your manager I would be concerned that taking annual leave for sickness may gradually burn you out and I would want you to be taking annual leave when you are well and able to enjoy it.

If it is preventative like your other post, how far in advance can you book it? If your request is something like evenly spaced leave every x months I'd expect them to grant that, but not if it was every half term/end of term with no budge on dates sort of thing.

Some NHS organisations let you buy additional leave or take unpaid leave also. My current place won't let you buy leave but will grant unpaid leave quite happily.

I'm not clear on what the annual leave booking process is and what you're asking for that is different there to say much more.

NotCopingWell1 · 29/03/2023 14:59

One thing that I do find poor is that many organisations won't let you do shorter hours without docking pay unless you've been off for four weeks and then return. Even though reducing someone's days for two weeks might help keep them in work. I've had that recently, I said I didn't want to go off sick (and be paid) so it was suggested I could reduce my days and be paid less. That won't fly with my mortgage needing to be paid, but when you think about it, surely me doing 75% my hours and getting full pay is better than 0% and my hours and getting full pay (which is what the case would be if I went off sick).

Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 15:23

NotCopingWell1 · 29/03/2023 14:58

NHS employee here with a disability.

I'm not sure it's reasonable to ask them to let you book annual leave differently to others when you have the option of sick leave. You're not likely to suffer detriment because you'd still get paid and usually disability related illness is not recorded against absence management. As your manager I would be concerned that taking annual leave for sickness may gradually burn you out and I would want you to be taking annual leave when you are well and able to enjoy it.

If it is preventative like your other post, how far in advance can you book it? If your request is something like evenly spaced leave every x months I'd expect them to grant that, but not if it was every half term/end of term with no budge on dates sort of thing.

Some NHS organisations let you buy additional leave or take unpaid leave also. My current place won't let you buy leave but will grant unpaid leave quite happily.

I'm not clear on what the annual leave booking process is and what you're asking for that is different there to say much more.

Thanks yeah so it’s more concentrated over one period of time so I do x number of weeks on 1 off etc. Then over a period of 6 months where I’m well I have one week off in the middle (the start and end of those 6 months are bookended by annual leave) then back into the stress period if you like. The weeks are specific-ish based on my medical history - ie there is one week we know has caused multiple issues and then the others space out from there and coincide with weeks where I’ve been previously ill.

it’s not that I’m taking annual leave instead of sick leave it’s that taking the annual leave in a specific pattern prevents me from getting to a point where I become ill. My illness is there all the time but it gradually gets worse to a point of crisis if you like. The annual leave helps manage it by giving me time to get back to a more stable point

I can book it 12 months before I need it. I’ve been told to do that and “it shouldn’t be a problem” but I don’t know what that means 😂

if that makes any sense xxx

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 18:48

NotCopingWell1 · 29/03/2023 14:59

One thing that I do find poor is that many organisations won't let you do shorter hours without docking pay unless you've been off for four weeks and then return. Even though reducing someone's days for two weeks might help keep them in work. I've had that recently, I said I didn't want to go off sick (and be paid) so it was suggested I could reduce my days and be paid less. That won't fly with my mortgage needing to be paid, but when you think about it, surely me doing 75% my hours and getting full pay is better than 0% and my hours and getting full pay (which is what the case would be if I went off sick).

Surely that’s putting you at a disadvantage under the equality act? That doesn’t seem right? If you were off sick long term and they had to offer you an alternative job role they can’t cut your salary even if it’s a lower grade … so how does a few weeks of reduced hours on the same wage differ to enable a phased return? X

OP posts:
Dontlistitonfacebook · 30/03/2023 10:40

OP I think you need a management referral to occupational health with a report produced by them that you allow to be shared. That's how it has worked for me in the NHS.

Slightly different but I have a condition that flares up and I manage it by "pacing", which includes being allowed to space out my on call duties so that I don't get overloaded and end up off work. Occupational health and management agreed to this as the aim is to keep me in work as a productive member of the team.

I don't think management would have agreed if I just asked for it myself though. İt needed an occupational health clinician to do an assessment of the situation and make a recommendation to management. Management of course could refuse this, but there would then be implications for disability discrimination.

Papergirl1968 · 30/03/2023 11:03

Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 29/03/2023 14:31

Oh that’s shit!! Wishing you a
speedy recovery my love xxx

Show quote history

Thanks, Tooscared. All the best to you too x

vivainsomnia · 30/03/2023 11:22

Is that particular week the one where Xmas and Nye fall? Because that would indeed raise eyebrows anywhere. Otherwise, I don't see the issue.

Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 04/04/2023 19:27

vivainsomnia · 30/03/2023 11:22

Is that particular week the one where Xmas and Nye fall? Because that would indeed raise eyebrows anywhere. Otherwise, I don't see the issue.

Nope,

not Christmas or nye and just one of them in school holidays (so we can take the children on holiday. They shouldn’t be discriminated against either just because they have a parent with a disability)

OP posts:
Original poster
Tooscaredtoorocktheboat · 04/04/2023 19:29

Just out of interest too one of the unions in my trust has sent out an email saying that discrimination grievances against the trust have risen massively recently and the trust are now using underhand tactics to try and undermine union support for those members of staff (can’t say what in case it’s outing) but it’s really bad

OP posts: