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AIBU?

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Original poster

To worry about free speech at universities

189 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 26/03/2023 14:42

Despite the various moves by the government to supposedly protect free speech and normal academic deabte the situation on the ground does not seem to change at all.

In the last week Claire Fox was disinvited from Royal Holloway for a deabte on free speech I believe - incredible as that may seem. Some students want to hear what she had to say and had invited her but got 'strong-armed' out of it by the students' union and then failed by the university admin who should have backed free speech.

And before people say it can't be that bad, Claire Fox's was disinvited after liking a Ricky Gervias joke - going on his social media profile that means millions and millions of us are also not fit to speak to university students!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/22/chilling-truth-cancellation/

Today this:

"Dr John Armstrong, a scholar at King's College London (KCL), applied to carry out a survey of elite athletes and volunteers on whether trans women, who are born male, should compete in women's track and field categories and whether they felt they could express their views.

However, the university's ethics panel rejected his application last week citing equality and diversity concerns, in what has been labelled an attack on academic freedom."

Further in the article it goes on to say:

"Dr Armstrong told The Telegraph: "They appear to be trying to prevent me from using the concept of sex at all. I am not misgendering any individuals, I am just accurately using the terms male and female.

"I’m being blocked from conducting research and it’s impacting upon my academic freedom.

"No serious work has been done by the various federations to try to find out the opinions of people in athletics, both at the grassroots and elite athletes.
"By refusing to allow people to conduct research that doesn’t meet certain activist viewpoints, that undermines the credibility of research in general.""

You can read much more here https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/26/transgender-athlete-research-rejected-professor-called-trans/

What it must be like to study and work in this kind of cloistered enviroment with a kind of inquisition checking up on whther you have transgressed I can't imagine. there must be hundreds of little choices staff and students make every day to conform - changing what they say,m what they write, the topics they're prepared to research. All the little chilling-effect ramifications that never make the headlines.

And if you think your family is woke enough for your teens to pass the purity tests when they get to unviersity - you're wrong. You can't feed this monster to pacify it. If wants bigger and bigger sacrifices and keeps changing the rules.

I just wish the governemnt would do more. Much more. And now.

The chilling truth about my cancellation

I wasn’t the victim when a university vetoed my talk. It was the young people failed by snowflake adults

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/22/chilling-truth-cancellation

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
howmanybicycles · 28/03/2023 14:29

ManipulatorPedipulator · 28/03/2023 12:54

That doesn’t answer my question. You’ve just gone on a rant that’s irrelevant to what I said.

With the olive scenario you requested:
John owns a restaurant that’s frequented by Bob, Alice and Fred. Fred hates olives and makes a sign. Bob also hates olives and likes the sign. He invites Fred to put the sign up at John’s restaurant. Alice sees this happening and likes olives. She goes to the waitress and says she doesn’t want the sign up. The waitress doesn’t want trouble so she asks Fred to take his sign down and take it away. Fred initially refuses so the waitress checks with John who confirms he doesn’t want the sign up. Fred takes his sign and puts it up outside his own house or in a different restaurant or at the park.

Fred, Alice and Bob all have a right to their opinions and to express them. They’re all entitled to be in the restaurant and all pay to be there. But the restaurant, owned by John but with duties delegated to the waitress, are entitled to tell Fred to take his sign elsewhere even though Bob invited him and even though John/the waitress is only trying to appease Alice.

None of that is a comment on how good or bad olives are. None of that is saying Fred is evil or that his sign is dangerous or that his artwork is poor. John is entitled to say “I don’t want your sign here”.

Show quote history

Still ignoring the impact of power. The restaurant does not do anything. People do. To be a relevant analogy you need to not talk about owners. The people who deplatformed the woman did not own the university. Please stop talking about signs too which are a somewhat permanent fixture not a very short term talk which you don't have to attend if you're not interested or offended by.

My "rant' is not irrelevant though you may be struggling to understand its relevance.

howmanybicycles · 28/03/2023 14:31

CeliaNorth · 28/03/2023 12:59

Can you give a relevant olive scenario which includes this really important point?

Some people asked if olives could be served as part of the refreshments at an event. The olives were bought and added to the published menu. Another group of people said 'We don't like olives. We hate olives. You mustn't serve them because we dislike them so much.' And they made so much fuss about the olives, even though no-one was forcing them to eat them, or even attend the event where they were being served, that the organisers refused to serve the olives and returned them to the supplier, even though there were other people who did want to eat the olives.

Much better analogy to the relevant situation. Thank you.

WishingMyLifeAway · 01/04/2023 04:33

ManipulatorPedipulator · 28/03/2023 09:23

It’s freedom of speech to say “no John, I like olives, you can’t come to my restaurant and put up a sign saying “I hate olives” even though some of my customers also hate olives and have said they want that sign because I have other customers who do like olives and I have an olive supplier that I don’t want to upset”. And it’s not a violation of John’s freedom of speech to tell him to put his sign somewhere else.

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Your argument there is to do with ownership, not free speech. I would defend John's right to say he doesn't like olives while stood in your shop, if he wanted to and did so appropriately. He can't put a sign up though, it's not his shop!

WishingMyLifeAway · 01/04/2023 04:34

howmanybicycles · 28/03/2023 14:31

Much better analogy to the relevant situation. Thank you.

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Yes that hits the nail on the head.....olive wise anyway!

WishingMyLifeAway · 01/04/2023 04:45

howmanybicycles · 28/03/2023 14:29

Still ignoring the impact of power. The restaurant does not do anything. People do. To be a relevant analogy you need to not talk about owners. The people who deplatformed the woman did not own the university. Please stop talking about signs too which are a somewhat permanent fixture not a very short term talk which you don't have to attend if you're not interested or offended by.

My "rant' is not irrelevant though you may be struggling to understand its relevance.

Show quote history

@ManipulatorPedipulator You are also confusing things by talking about a business. A business has different aims and objectives to a university. A business won't generally want people putting up signs and making controversial speeches when they are just trying to make money by selling sandwiches (or olives) - they will not want their customers bothered by controversy and protest - it puts people off their tea, and would affect John's bottom line.

A university on the other hand should be encouraging discussion, debate, differing opinions and critical thinking - shutting off certain opinions because a of section of the students don't want to hear that opinion is the complete opposite of what a university should be about.

FrostyFifi · 01/04/2023 04:56

You know, I'm glad voting is enabled on this one.
Universities are public institutions and should absolutely be upholding free speech.

GrammarTeacher · 01/04/2023 07:00

I was an exec officer on my student union in the late 90s. If a society or speaker didn't agree to abide with our equalities statement then they weren't allowed to speak or hold events in our buildings.
This was why the OTC (this was when you couldn't be openly gay in the military) and Christian Union had their stands outside for Freshers' week.
This is not new. Freedom of speech is not the right to an audience and it never has been. It is not freedom from consequences either.

GCAcademic · 01/04/2023 07:20

GrammarTeacher · 01/04/2023 07:00

I was an exec officer on my student union in the late 90s. If a society or speaker didn't agree to abide with our equalities statement then they weren't allowed to speak or hold events in our buildings.
This was why the OTC (this was when you couldn't be openly gay in the military) and Christian Union had their stands outside for Freshers' week.
This is not new. Freedom of speech is not the right to an audience and it never has been. It is not freedom from consequences either.

Luckily the Equality Act now protects freedom of religion or belief so you wouldn’t legally be able to eject someone from your facilities for being a Christian.

howmanybicycles · 01/04/2023 09:19

GCAcademic · 01/04/2023 07:20

Luckily the Equality Act now protects freedom of religion or belief so you wouldn’t legally be able to eject someone from your facilities for being a Christian.

Show quote history

Or for being gender critical.

GrammarTeacher · 01/04/2023 09:34

They weren't ejected for being Christian. Catholic Society were part of the union as were Muslim Society. The statement was basically asking them to agree with something the same as the equalities act. Those organisations refused to not discriminate and so were not allowed to use the union buildings.
Nobody has to give you an audience. Nobody has to share a platform with you if they don't want to.
We do not have unlimited free speech in this country anyway.

titchy · 01/04/2023 11:01

GrammarTeacher · 01/04/2023 09:34

They weren't ejected for being Christian. Catholic Society were part of the union as were Muslim Society. The statement was basically asking them to agree with something the same as the equalities act. Those organisations refused to not discriminate and so were not allowed to use the union buildings.
Nobody has to give you an audience. Nobody has to share a platform with you if they don't want to.
We do not have unlimited free speech in this country anyway.

In the case we're talking about, the Debating Society IS part of the SU though. It's not a fringe group that sits outside the unions governance and ordinances. And the speaker invited wasn't spreading hatred so the line that is the Prevent duty hasn't been crossed.

TinySaltLick · 01/04/2023 14:01

FrostyFifi · 01/04/2023 04:56

You know, I'm glad voting is enabled on this one.
Universities are public institutions and should absolutely be upholding free speech.

Whilst they receive public funding, unisities are privately owned and managed organisations so I'm not sure you class them as public

FrostyFifi · 01/04/2023 14:22

Whilst they receive public funding, unisities are privately owned and managed organisations so I'm not sure you class them as public

Perhaps if they only permit specific orthodoxies they should opt to be fully private then.

titchy · 01/04/2023 14:44

Whilst they receive public funding, unisities are privately owned and managed organisations so I'm not sure you class them as public

If you'd bothered to read the thread you'd see that they are regulated by Gov and that regulation includes upholding free speech.

They're also not private either (other than private providers such as UoBuckingham, College of Law etc).

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