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Original poster

Zero tolerance schools and slant techniques for send - good, okay or terrible

283 replies

Zerotolerancetofun · 24/03/2023 23:46

Dd is starting secondary next year. The school has a zero tolerance behaviour policy so very strict about everything (uniform, homework, behaviour etc). They are also bringing in this new teaching technique called slant that the kids are meant to follow - about how they sit/pay attention/look at the teachers - it sounds very Draconian.

Dd has ASD and significant levels of anxiety and I am concerned how this environment will work for her. I think she will be terrified of making a mistake and getting detention for minor mistakes, but of course if this approach stops bullying etc then that is a good thing for her.

I'd love to know how other people's DC have got on with this type of school. Particularly if they have ASD, but also NT children too.

OP posts:
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6
3WildOnes · 25/03/2023 22:37

Florenz · 25/03/2023 21:57

How are these children who can't cope with an orderly environment going to cope when they leave school and start work?

My workplace is nothing like one of these super strict schools. If I forget my pen, I borrow one. If mine train is delayed and I am late, no one gives me a detention, they just empathise about the crappy public transport. I can go to the loo when I want. I can write notes in meeting. I can occasionally day dream about what I am going to get for lunch.

My children are thriving at their non strict schools. They're not trouble makers but they would have struggled at a super strict school.

Untitledsquatboulder · 25/03/2023 23:09

@3WildOnes nice for you. If I turn up on site and have forgotten a piece of equipment then the day's work is compromised - its a disciplinary offence.

Florenz · 25/03/2023 23:41

3WildOnes · 25/03/2023 22:37

My workplace is nothing like one of these super strict schools. If I forget my pen, I borrow one. If mine train is delayed and I am late, no one gives me a detention, they just empathise about the crappy public transport. I can go to the loo when I want. I can write notes in meeting. I can occasionally day dream about what I am going to get for lunch.

My children are thriving at their non strict schools. They're not trouble makers but they would have struggled at a super strict school.

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Most workplaces are nothing like that. In some workplaces daydreaming when you're supposed to be working causes accidents and gets people hurt or killed.

twelly · 25/03/2023 23:51

Maybe this approach will improve behaviour in schools.

Needmorelego · 26/03/2023 00:04

@Untitledsquatboulder @Florenz the difference between school and work is adults get to choose the work environment they are in.

Florenz · 26/03/2023 00:23

Children (or their parents) get to choose what school they go to. Or they can be home-schooled.

Needmorelego · 26/03/2023 00:32

@Florenz so state funded education should only be for children who learn and act in one specific way?

Florenz · 26/03/2023 00:42

No because not all schools are SLANT schools. And even in SLANT schools there are rules but the vast majority of children are capable of following the rules. And all schools have rules.

JKisrolling · 26/03/2023 00:48

I can’t stand these kind of schools (which unfortunately is now most state secondary schools). There’s no evidence that this hardline ‘no excuses’ discipline is actually what’s best for children, especially those with additional needs. As for SLANT, it’s a lazy attempt to make students conform, again with no real evidence base.

As a pp has mentioned, all you can do is see how she goes and be willing to make changes if it’s really not working. Having said that, I went to a strict school and you do get used to it eventually, but the transition into Year 7 can be tough.

CryHavok · 26/03/2023 00:49

This isn’t gonna be a popular opinion, but you don’t have to support the school.

Your kid is entitled to a decent education at their local school. If they put her in detention and you don’t think it’s reasonable just call up the school and say she’s not doing it. There’s nothing they can do. It’s virtually impossible to expel kids nowadays, and schools get financially penalised when they do.

As for anything else make it clear to her that you know her school is ran by dickheads so whatever happens at school stays at school.

Florenz · 26/03/2023 00:57

CryHavok · 26/03/2023 00:49

This isn’t gonna be a popular opinion, but you don’t have to support the school.

Your kid is entitled to a decent education at their local school. If they put her in detention and you don’t think it’s reasonable just call up the school and say she’s not doing it. There’s nothing they can do. It’s virtually impossible to expel kids nowadays, and schools get financially penalised when they do.

As for anything else make it clear to her that you know her school is ran by dickheads so whatever happens at school stays at school.

That's an absolute appalling attitude to have and will not lead to a child doing well at school.

CryHavok · 26/03/2023 00:59

Florenz · 26/03/2023 00:57

That's an absolute appalling attitude to have and will not lead to a child doing well at school.

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That was my parent’s attitude and I probably make more money than you.

Nimbostratus100 · 26/03/2023 04:16

saraclara · 25/03/2023 22:04

They are supposed to swivel round and stare at every child who says anything,

I world have hated that SO much, and would never have chosen to answer a question in a lesson again.

well, answering in lessons isn't a choice, you are told when to answer

Nimbostratus100 · 26/03/2023 04:29

CryHavok · 26/03/2023 00:49

This isn’t gonna be a popular opinion, but you don’t have to support the school.

Your kid is entitled to a decent education at their local school. If they put her in detention and you don’t think it’s reasonable just call up the school and say she’s not doing it. There’s nothing they can do. It’s virtually impossible to expel kids nowadays, and schools get financially penalised when they do.

As for anything else make it clear to her that you know her school is ran by dickheads so whatever happens at school stays at school.

you are so wrong

you do not have the legal power to prevent schools from issuing a detention

and it is no problem at all to expel a child if you are an academy.

Nimbostratus100 · 26/03/2023 04:34

Florenz · 25/03/2023 22:08

My boss wouldn't have to tell me to sit up straighter because I don't spend the working day slouching, rocking back on my chair, passing notes to colleagues, throwing paper aeroplanes or any number of things that kids will do in school if they're allowed to get away with it.

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are you seriously telling me your boss would tell you to sit up straight if you slouch!! I don't think so

anyway, in the SLANT school I was in, you would be told to sit up straighter if you were caught with your back touching the back of your chair, and if you were caught twice, you would be put in detention

Nimbostratus100 · 26/03/2023 04:41

twelly · 25/03/2023 23:51

Maybe this approach will improve behaviour in schools.

yes, a strict behaviour policy rigorously enforced, certainly does improve behaviour.

I am not against SLANT in principle, I am against it being taken to extremes.

I am giving my experience of it so you know what it can be like.

And yes, some children love it, and some children hate it.

I left the SLANT school and am now in a school that is not SLANT, but has a behaviour policy that has the best of SLANT anyway, and a happy medium.

Blinkingstars · 26/03/2023 04:45

Can you expel pupils in England? I’m in Scotland and we cannot expel
them here. The total lack of threat of any meaningful sanctions mean behaviour is just descending most classes into chaos.

Blinkingstars · 26/03/2023 04:46

My ND gets really upset by those that spend the whole lesson mucking around so would probably get on well with this.

Nimbostratus100 · 26/03/2023 04:47

Blinkingstars · 26/03/2023 04:45

Can you expel pupils in England? I’m in Scotland and we cannot expel
them here. The total lack of threat of any meaningful sanctions mean behaviour is just descending most classes into chaos.

yes if you are an academy, no problem, pupils are got rid of easily

Nimbostratus100 · 26/03/2023 04:51

Blinkingstars · 26/03/2023 04:46

My ND gets really upset by those that spend the whole lesson mucking around so would probably get on well with this.

some children do.

I had a student on one chaotic school who was totally out of control, and constantly disrupting everyone - I remember counting her being given more than 30 "final chances" in one lesson. She and I both moved to a SLANT school and she absolutely excelled. She was a different child

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 26/03/2023 05:04

Florenz · 25/03/2023 21:57

How are these children who can't cope with an orderly environment going to cope when they leave school and start work?

They won’t cope. Already the self discipline which used to be learnt progressively throughout childhood and adolescence is being pushed further up the chain onto the hapless ‘employer’.

it’s probably too late by then, anyway.

Tamuchly · 26/03/2023 05:46

AFriendToEveryoneIsAFriendToNoOne · 25/03/2023 09:05

I'm really interested to read/hear about schools like this.

My child (who is still mid-primary age so we're a while off secondary) is autistic with an EHCP which gives full time support at the moment. Hopefully this won't be needed by secondary age (the full time adult support). But she has zero learning disabilities, quite the opposite she's academically advanced. Not bragging, being factual for context. She masks distress at school, and out it comes at home.

I've thought previously that this sort of school would suit her to the ground. She is anxious and one of her biggest struggles is not understanding why other children break the rules/misbehave/disrupt everyone. She wants to sit at her desk, listen, learn and get her work right. She loves to know what the rules are, and once she knows 'the routine', she follows it. Disruptions, especially unexpected ones are really challenging for her. There's safety in the familiarity of very set rules/boundaries/knowing what will happen if rules aren't followed.

I've been thinking that for lots of children with SEND, especially those whose behaviour can unavoidably be unpredictable (of which there are many in state mainstreams) schools like this could be hellish. But for mine, I think she might flourish in this sort of environment. I'd be really interested to look around one, but we don't have any locally.

There's a huge gap in schools for autistic children who are academically able. Standard mainstreams aren't right very often, too chaotic. Special schools aren't either, they're not set up for academic achievement because the vast vast majority cater for children with learning disabilities (amongst other SEND).

Hmmm.

My son is ND but no learning difficulties, he has thrived at a school like this. Now in year 10, he has really enjoyed the lack of disruption, managed discussions and proper learning experience. It suits him and his NT twin perfectly. The school has also worked wonders for some of their not-so-well behaved friends who are now achieving beyond expectation.

saraclara · 26/03/2023 08:21

As I mentioned early in the thread, even the guy who came up with SLANT had now recognised that there are issues with it, and has dumped it in favour of a slightly different approach.

He says: “I do think SLANT was so focused on observable behaviours that it caused teachers to overfocus on that.”

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/the-big-interview-doug-lemov/

Does this mean a move away from zero tolerance and no excuses behaviour cultures is needed? “There are a thousand steps a teacher should take before a situation reaches isolation, for example,” he says. “The best solution is prevention. It’s about not ending up in a situation where the best solution is something like isolation.”

The big interview: Doug Lemov

The first two editions of Teach Like A Champion by Doug Lemov have had huge influence. But now he explains why he is rethinking his approach to behaviour advice…

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/the-big-interview-doug-lemov

Forever42 · 26/03/2023 08:24

We have very clear and strict rules (enforced very kindly)

Unfortunately I think some of the schools with these sorts of rules do not enforce them 'kindly'. My DC goes to a school like this. She and her friends are all quiet, academic, compliant. They all hate going to school. They have no problem with the rules themselves, but with the general "prison officer" demeanour most of the teachers seem to adopt when enforcing them (eg, yelling if you are deemed to be looking at your pen for too long). The most disliked teachers are those who insist on keeping back the whole class and making them miss their lunch, or late for the bus. Lazy, ineffective behaviour management (I say that as a teacher).

MichelleScarn · 26/03/2023 08:40

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 26/03/2023 05:04

They won’t cope. Already the self discipline which used to be learnt progressively throughout childhood and adolescence is being pushed further up the chain onto the hapless ‘employer’.

it’s probably too late by then, anyway.

Show quote history

Agree. They won't cope and again it'll be someone else's fault re anything that goes wrong. Look at all the threads on here when parents/students get the shock that at college/uni not turning up to lectures/labs, not handing in work gets sanctions/fails and they want ACTION TAKEN! Or the complaints that they can't do x task in their role, like speak to customers or present a report but still think they should be be promoted to a senior role where this is the main aspect and if they don't get it, 'its not faaair'!