Zero tolerance schools and slant techniques for send - good, okay or terrible

[Zerotolerancetofun]

Dd is starting secondary next year. The school has a zero tolerance behaviour policy so very strict about everything (uniform, homework, behaviour etc). They are also bringing in this new teaching technique called slant that the kids are meant to follow - about how they sit/pay attention/look at the teachers - it sounds very Draconian.

Dd has ASD and significant levels of anxiety and I am concerned how this environment will work for her. I think she will be terrified of making a mistake and getting detention for minor mistakes, but of course if this approach stops bullying etc then that is a good thing for her.

I'd love to know how other people's DC have got on with this type of school. Particularly if they have ASD, but also NT children too.

@Busybody2022

I see schools that have a ridiculously high percentage of SEN/SEMH students as being discriminative, particularly when they have low expectations for behaviour. My NT, academic child wants to learn free from constant disruptions.

Quite the opposite. One was a formal quarterly board meeting, the other was a sub group addressing a serious issue.

Schools waste too much time pandering to the needs of individual students. Employers aren't going to want to do this, it's up to workers to adapt and fit in with the companies needs, not the other way round.

At the end of the day, let SLANT schools and other schools compete, see which ones come out best, which one produces successful school leavers and let parents make their choice. It will all work out in the end. There's no need to talk about banning schools that expect children to behave professionally.

My heart bleeds for children with the privilege of not having additional needs having those with additional needs in their lives. It is also a very good life skill to learn to work despite distractions. It is a vital life skill to learn empathy and compassion.

Idtotallybangdreamoftheendlessnotgonnalie, your analogy of car-parks is pretty feeble. Try teaching a class where half the students are EHCP or have serious learning challenges - as I do, every day, in an FE college - and you'd soon see how facile it is.

And your discriminatory language disgusts me. I've reported your post.

Oh behave, when you start with the ridiculous hyperbole like this @Idtotallybangdreamoftheendlessnotgonnalie it just makes no sense. Not a single person has used horrible discriminatory language like this. Unless you think we shouldn't be talking about how different ways of learning work for different people?

Think it depends on the way their neurodiversity is wired. For DD2, with Autism, inattentive ADHD and other issues - it would be an utter and unmitigated disaster. We learnt during the pandemic when she was taught by a teacher who absolutely did not feel schools should ever have reopened and implemented so many rules of that kind in her class regarding never moving from seats, never not looking forward etc - that all that she learnt over the course of that awful year was that she spent the entire year worrying about remembering all the rules and not breaking them... to the point that she (she has continence issues) wouldn't even dare ask to go to the toilet which she had agreed permission to do, and would end up sat in her own shit for days on end. She would fall apart emotionally every night with the cumulative strain of having to follow all these incredibly controlling rules and her desperation to please the staff (who never ever praised her at all) and it absolutely shredded her mental health. It's taken that lost year of learning, most of last year where she had to re-learn how to behave well but not in a terrified manner, and we're only getting back on track this year really.

So much so that we're adamant there is no way she's going to the local "outstanding" secondary that behaves this way (but also has a raging bullying problem).

She also is a fidget, and really struggles with eye contact - but from nursery age (apart from the awful period) she has had teachers who have rapidly understood that she is listening to absolutely every fucking word going... SLANT school and I can guarantee that all would be going in from lesson content would be an internal monologue of "oooh there's a noise up there... can't look to see what it is... I need to look at Miss... need to be looking at Miss... my foot feels funny... can't move to wiggle it... need to be looking at Miss and following the rules right... Mr S says we have to do SLANT all the time... I've kept looking at Miss now..." and all the lesson content will be in a circling pattern somewhere miles away from DD2's brain.

Think it's fucking abusive to be honest - but society seems to be determined to go back to trying to lock ND kids away as dunces and demonise them and a sector on MN seem to be gleefully cheering them on.

My son went to a school that did SLANT for a term, and I took him out, because even though I told the school that he was waiting for surgery for an adolescent onset lazy eye, he racked up 10 days in isolation for persistently "showing off" by tracking the teacher with only one eye. I was basically told that if I questioned this then perhaps it was not the right school for him.

I am in favour of a no-tolerance approach to disruption/chatting in lessons, and a strongly supported behaviour policy.

I am less in favour of SLANT. It can be carried far too far.

For example - "Sit Up" - how far up? I know schools that take this to uncomfortable extremes and force all students (and staff) to sit unnaturally straight in every lesson all day, to the point it gives you back ache.

Head nodding, ok, unless pupils get silly over it, or schools replace it with clicking, and other silly things

Tracking, I ban from my lessons, even in SLANT schools - I don't want every child to swivel round and stare at some poor shy girl in the second to back row who is trying to explain her answer - especially as I am well aware that a certain number of those swivelled round children will be pulling faces, etc. They are supposed to swivel round and stare at every child who says anything, but I just dont find it at all helpful and tell them not to do it in my classroom

The school were completely aware, and had all the relevant experts giving them advice about adjusting their expectations. Their attitude was that they knew better, and DD should 'get over it'.

Yes, the assumptions behind that comment are breath taking!

I think I agree with you actually.

I posted earlier that this sort of highly disciplined school might suit my child (ASD, suspected ADHD, cognitively/academically advanced and not disruptive with an EHCP which currently give full time adult support) because she is going to need a secondary where she can achieve academically but is a also calm, non-disruptive environment with strict rules/routine/expectations. These settings seem thin on the ground!

But SLANT wouldn't work for her at all. Eye contact for a start. Nope. She's listening alright to every damn word, but she won't be making eye contact or often looking where she should be. Sitting up, still, etc? Half of the time. The other half she can't. She's not leaping around being distracting others but she might be using a little fidget worm quietly, or moving her feet. The list goes on.

When I was at school, teachers threw chalk at pupils not paying attention.

There is a fantastic little museum in East London called the Ragged School Museum (Sunday Open House - The Ragged School Museum) where once a month (when not being refurbished!) you can get a taste of a Victorian poor school classroom with an actor playing the part of a teacher. They don't actually cane people 😂 but are very clear about the strict and punitive regime.

It is a great place to visit, I went with DD and a friend and her daughter when the children were about 9 and 6 - they both loved it, as did friend and I!

SLANT and zero tolerance seem to be heading back towards those days, and ignoring what has been learned since about neuro-science. It's a great way of schooling the masses into obedience, and excluding those who can't or won't comply. In the meantime those with money can ensure their children get their needs met with alternative options.

I don't think anyone would consider that to be a positive thing.

Says the recipient of more than one board rubber/marker to the back of the head during my time in school, or a fist banged hard/ huge rock dropped on your desk deliberately intended to make you jump out of your skin in the late nineties. Yes, long after any sort of physical 'interventions' were acceptable or allowed in the classroom! I hope they don't still do that sort of thing.

I probably wasn't paying attention in the way the teacher would've liked...I'd have been trying to though. I always tried my best. Undiagnosed autistic, with ADHD though.

Times have changed, and behaviour in schools horrifies me quite honestly. But doing anything physical, or actually frightening children isn't the answer.

Some of these stories are awful to hear how send children have been treated.

It is one of my fears that even if you agree reasonable adjustments with the senco. The reality of lots of different children and different teachers is that these adjustments can be missed and/or ignored depending on the teacher.

I think it is down to the ethos of the school.

DD's school seems to have staff that are experienced enough to detect and deal with bullsh*t from the little darlings, but overall will listen and accept reasonable mistakes. One incident of forgotten PE kit will be accepted with a suggestion of getting school things ready the night before, but repeated 'forgetting' will be tackled. if there is a SEN reason they will help the pupil (and family) find techniques to use. If it is 'can't be bothered' then there will be sanctions.

As I said, it is zero tolerance in that there are clear expectations and boundaries, which are consistently implemented. But it takes an approach of teaching young people how to meet those expectations, rather than relying on punishment to teach them.

That means that a) teachers who work there are signed up to the ethos of knowing individual pupil's needs and understanding the adjustments to apply, and b) listening to the individual pupil, and therefore giving them a chance to explain their needs or reasons for lack of compliance. That is backed up with an IT system where staff can quickly look up the record of a pupil that will include info about SEN.

The staff also seem to have the confidence to acknowledge when they get it wrong and put it right. There have been times with a new academic year and new teachers where they haven't all been on top of DD's needs from day 1. DD knows she can go to the SENCO if a member of staff isn't following the support plan. It's not seen as 'telling tales' - the SENCO just explains DD's situation to the member of staff, the member of staff acknowledges this to DD and reassures her that next time they will know how to respond. No big deal.

And an excellent way of teaching how to respond to mistakes - acknowledge you got it wrong, apologise, and do it differently in future. Very reassuring to DD who gets paralysed by the fear of making a mistake (because that is linked in her brain to a beating, for those who ask how a child can have PTSD).

Surely the detention is given after a set amount of incidents in one day, not on first strike?

Depends on the school. Some are detention for first strike

The clue is in the phrase 'zero' tolerance...

I wouldn't work in a zero tolerance workplace.

I do my best, and have good performance reviews and 99% of the time am getting it right. I go out of my way to take on extra work when I have the capacity, and volunteer for more than my share of unpopular tasks.

But every so often I make a mistake. As soon as I know about it I do what I can to fix it.

I am not perfect. I don't expect DD to be perfect, I do expect her to consistently do her best, and acknowledge her 'best' is affected by various factors.

don't be daft, how is a teacher at 10 O'clock going to know how many "strikes" a child had with the teacher at 9 O'clock! unless you want teachers to spend all day recording strikes on a school wide spread sheet.

its normally 2 strikes, although in most schools a forgotten PE kit or lab coat or cookery apron is an immediate detention.

But a strike can be letting your back touch the back of your chair, when you are supposed to be sitting up straight, or something like that

I'm not daft @Nimbostratus100

well, your suggestion was totally unworkable, then