Zero tolerance schools and slant techniques for send - good, okay or terrible

[Zerotolerancetofun]

Dd is starting secondary next year. The school has a zero tolerance behaviour policy so very strict about everything (uniform, homework, behaviour etc). They are also bringing in this new teaching technique called slant that the kids are meant to follow - about how they sit/pay attention/look at the teachers - it sounds very Draconian.

Dd has ASD and significant levels of anxiety and I am concerned how this environment will work for her. I think she will be terrified of making a mistake and getting detention for minor mistakes, but of course if this approach stops bullying etc then that is a good thing for her.

I'd love to know how other people's DC have got on with this type of school. Particularly if they have ASD, but also NT children too.

A strict school I might try and see. But SLANT would be an absolute no for me. I have a bright, well behaved and autistic secondary school DD. She wants and needs a quiet classroom to learn in, that’s not an issue. But she just wouldn’t be able to follow the slant rules and learn at the same time. She’s currently the one who will have her hand up to answer and got glowing reports from her teachers. She’s never had a detention or even a demerit for behaviour. But she absolutely would not be able to sit up straight at all times, track the teacher, and listen. She needs to be able to doodle to concentrate. She needs to look at nothing so she can focus on speech. And the teacher needs to be able to see her body language so they know if she’s managing. You’d turn a top student into a discipline problem immediately if you tried to get her to follow slant, and for what? There are other ways to stop disruption in class.

Personally I think this is borderline abusive. I hope parents are “zero tolerance” with these schools!

We're a large mainstream secondary school (almost 2000 students including sixth form), very much a true comprehensive in that our catchment covers some very affluent areas and areas with high levels of socioeconomic deprivation. Larger than average number of students with SEND and who have been in local authority care.

@neverbeenskiing

That is the ideal then. But, with the educational system a complete an utter shambles, I’m a firm believer in doing what is best for your individual child. Schools such as the above who operate within areas of complete deprivation (and not even balanced by areas of affluence) could potentially work well for some kids like my son.

In this particular area, there are quite a number of secondaries to pick from so there is an element of choice so to speak. Having said that my sons school is the most over subscribed without a doubt.

As a teacher, I have no desire to work in highly academic schools that do discriminate and I think your school is ideal, but sadly rare.

Yes, DD once got the punishment for being 'disrespectful to an adult' because she shut down and was unable to defend herself for not turning to the right page in a book. I had already told the (primary school) teacher that DD has PTSD and will freeze in a confrontational situation.

The teacher, exasperated, asked 'why didn't you turn to the right page' and DD froze.

It was the same punishment that children would have received for swearing at a teacher or getting into a physical fight.

When challenged by me in a meeting that involved the HoY, the teacher said that they didn't know what else to do as DD was 'incapable' of following instructions and they were so frustrated.

The children that couldn't conform to this inadequate teacher's need were labelled as 'disrespectful' and bullied out of the school

Sounds like DD's school. And the school where my friend teaches. And thecomp I went to.

Should be standard for every child

@mixedrecycling was your DD able to explain why she hadn't turned to the right page, once she was out of the confrontational atmosphere?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4756650-to-take-action-against-school-for-daughters-back-pain?page=1

How has your daughter got PTSD? Isn't that post traumatic stress disorder? It seems unusual for a child to have it. Who has diagnosed her with it?

Worry her? Ok, lots of kids are anxious, and/or perfectionists. The question is how you approach this, what YOU do to help her deal with that. One option is to avoid the school. Others are:

• With DC1 we worked with her to lose the fear of detentions. At her school you can get one for a forgotten ruler or homework. It was going to happen at some point. Decatastrophise. We set her a joke challenge of getting a detention as an essential teenage experience. So when she did, she could join in with the joke of achieving this "goal". She has learned a lot about perspective. It's healthy to learn to handle these small bumps in the road without self flagellating.
• With DC2 it's totally different. At both his secondary schools he has simply been excused from all detentions. This is a thing. School know he is doing his best.
• DC2's school is very strict with detentions but it goes alongside a narrative of "you'll make mistakes, everyone does. Here we take responsibility for our mistakes and move on from them". Again, decatastrophising. Getting a detention does not make them a horrible person or a failure.

It really isn't as simple as "my child can't cope with detention therefore this school will be awful for them." You just need to find a way forward so that they can cope and thrive. And that starts IMO with talking to the staff to find out more about the culture and implementation of the policies in practice.

These schools are calm, organised places. Expectations are high and adhered to. The teacher’s focus is on teaching and learning not behaviour management.

From her birth family. Do I need to go into details about how a child can have PTSD by the age of 3?

Diagnosed by CAMHS

My experience of this is that although in theory schools can have a strict behaviour policy and adapt it for children with SEND in practice they don’t. I think there’s an indirect effect in that you don’t meet that many teachers who can be mainstream-y, behaviourist approach advocates and trauma informed, send specialists. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive mindsets but ime they are generally distinct approaches. The teachers I met who could do both are now mostly retired.

Also I worked as a TA in a school a bit like this and behaviour was good but the pupils with SEND were overall learning absolutely fuck all but because they were sitting quietly no one was interested. It was a disgrace tbh but the exam results were good overall so… 🤷🏻‍♀️

For those not familiar; SLANT stands for

Sit up
Listen
Ask and answer questions
Nod your head (active listening)
Track (look at) the speaker

I know that people are picturing this as very robotic and dystopian but surely that's how most polite people behave in any meeting, or setting when information is being explained. I don't see what is so wrong about that. Isn't it basic social ettiquette?

If a majority of NT students are doing this in a classroom, then a couple of ND children who find one or more of those behaviours difficult is more manageable. I doubt that a whole room of children with heads on the desk, staring out the window, fiddling with pens, rummaging in bags and paying no attention to the teacher is comfortable for ND children either.

@goldfootball

Some teachers and SLT believe that being trauma informed means we should allow certain children to be abusive because they’ve experienced trauma. Even in the realms of clinical work, the concept of being “trauma informed” is woefully misunderstood, and quickly just becoming the next buzz word.

Most teachers I’ve had the pleasure of working with do take a holistic approach to children and their individual needs, bar the odd one of course. It doesn’t always mean the approaches will work. I personally know a head who is trying to change around an SEMH school which can truly, truly be likened to a prison environment. They often do go into young offenders at some point after they leave. The funding just is not there to provide a therapeutic setting as well as an educational one. It’s a mess.

As a former teacher I would love to send my children to a school like this. Behaviour is so bad in some schools and children find it really stressful and impossible to learn in such an environment. My children don't have sen so I don't know from that perspective but I would say the structure, order and predictability would be a good thing for a child with anxiety.

@PetitPorpoise some children have to be explicitly taught those skills and practice them like anything else they are learning to do. Lots of SALT interventions in my school are essentially this. Attention and listening comes naturally to most of us but not all and some children will be literally incapable of sitting still and listening for 5/6 hours a day. In my class (special school) I will insist on all the slant stuff for max 20 minutes at a time because that is very genuinely the upper limit for how long the pupils can do it. Throughout the day there are lots of ways I create opportunities to develop attention and listening skills so they are getting better but it’s about 50% of what I’m actually “teaching” them tbh. And loads of it would look like we were just playing a game or having a chat but those are foundational skills to be able to interact with people. It’s actually fascinating how much I was taking for granted before I started this job and got interested in SALT.

Agree @PetitPorpoise when did behaviour like this stop being as standard in a school setting? That it's now an actual 'thing' to sit and pay attention to the teacher?
If its seen as such a dramatic thing to be doing at school I'd absolutely send DC to a school that had these 'rules'! What are other classes like then, if sitting and listening is out of the ordinary?

I agree with you, and so having this expectation that for listening parts of the lesson, this is how we should behave surely we are teaching helpful behaviours and social skills. Most lessons wouldn't have huge chunks of time of pure listening without being interspersed with other tasks anyway.

@Chilloutsnow

”Some teachers and SLT believe that being trauma informed means we should allow certain children to be abusive because they’ve experienced trauma. Even in the realms of clinical work, the concept of being “trauma informed” is woefully misunderstood, and quickly just becoming the next buzz word.”

yes I feel like I’ve certainly come across this. I get how difficult it is to roll out genuinely trauma informed policies and I’m grateful to work somewhere that has resources to do it.

In that case, I think you should have made certain that the school was aware of it, do that they could adjust their expectations accordingly.

@PetitPorpoise id definitely plan for most lessons to have a mix of listening and activities but I’ve worked in an academy chain where active listening was expected for most of every lesson and they were looking to move towards even more of a ‘lecture’ style teaching model. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I don’t think having the expectation that children sit and listen is the same as teaching them to be able to do it. In one sense it’s demonstrating to them that there’s is something they ought to be able to but if they can’t do it they can’t do it. The 20 mins of sustained attention I can expect from my class is after two terms of effort! I have had to explicitly teach and practice stuff like - if I say your name I want you to look at me. As in we have done entire lessons of games based on that. I know it sounds a bit like a joke but that’s the reality of my class!

@Littlecamellia im pretty sure the school would have been aware of a Looked After Child with a PTSD diagnosis 🤦🏻‍♀️ Really on them if they weren’t!

@goldfootball

Well that is impressive. I have worked in many, many schools that have tried and failed and quite frankly just haven’t got a clue on what the concept even means. Now I’m not blaming schools for this, hell even clinical services might need a refresher or two on how to implement a trauma informed service.

I worked clinically in health and social care, mainly mental health services before entering the profession to teach H&S care. I do have high standards in terms of a holistic education. However, as a mother I can compartmentalise and I have no issue with sending one of my children to a school which isn’t inclusive. For him, in the context of where we live and his attributes it was the right decision.

For a child who may have SEN, ND or MH issues I would think twice.

I think schools these schools are a great idea. Parents who don't think their children would benefit from a strict learning environment should probably send their children to another school.