DH says he won’t honour my wishes re death.

[Chocchops72]

So all this is theoretical as (touch wood) I’m in my 50s and in good health.

i haven’t completely researched this yet, but I am very keen not to have my life extended if I descend into either a debilitating and terminal illness or develop dementia, to the extent where I am bedridden, incontinent, unable to communicate and I want to put in place whatever paperwork I can to ensure this.

DH is refusing to support me in this and says he would not enact it, for two reasons.

one, we watched a Ted talk recently which talked about ‘future selves’ and how people genuinely do change their minds about big decisions / beliefs they have, as they age. So people that have signed an advanced directive, setting out the circumstances where they wish to be allowed to die, may genuinely change their minds about this as they get older. I agree with this to an extent, but I don’t think a decision made when in full control of one’s faculties (ie now) should necessarily overrule a change of heart that might theoretically come once the person has lost the capacity to make a decision. DH has taken it totally at face value though, probably connected to the second reason.

two, his mum is currently in a nursing home. She has Parkinson’s, dementia and severe osteoporosis. She is almost totally immobile, incontinent, cannot speak, communicate or feed herself. She basically lies in a chair or lies in a bed, is fed / washed / toileted, and talked at. Or left in a room with inane cartoons blaring at her. Or being jollied along by nurses / carers. FIL visits daily: he has made these visits the sole focus of his life, his duty / responsibility and expects everyone else to think the same way. If he can’t make it, he insists that SIL (who already visits 2-3 times a week) to take his place, and he calls her every night to ‘update’ her on her mothers (unchanging) condition, which she finds very hard. DH (because we live abroad) get roped into weekly zoom calls, where he basically talks to his dad and sister while his mum sleeps through the whole thing or makes random mumbled comments. Yet because she is cared for she might live in this half-existence for years and years to come.

i have absolutely zero desire to live like this. Or for him and our two DSs to end up caring for me or binding their daily lives to me, or feeling guilty because they don’t. But DH takes it as a great insult when I says this, as if I’m suggesting his mum would be better off dead and that they (FIL and SIL in particular) are stupid for making her so much the focus of their lives.

My experience of MILs situation is that the spouse generally gets asked what the patients wishes are, and I don’t know if medical staff would go actively against the wishes of a spouse. Even if they didn’t match what the patient has written down previously.

what do you think? AIBU to expect DH to enact my stated wishes, even if they don’t accord with his beliefs?

What exactly do you think k should happen with his mother OP?

Do you think they should withdraw her food and water (illegal)? Or give her a lethal injection? (Ditto) Or just not bother with her now her quality of life is so poor?

Despite what the pp thinks you cannot be put on an end of life care plan unless a doctor thinks you are end of life - having a terrible quality of life doesn't count, you have to be actively dying and near the end. They could refuse antibiotics if she gets an infection and ask she be kept out of hospital if she deteriorates but even the latter may not happen if the care home sends her in.

You may not want to end up like your MiL but the fact is no amount of advance directives can prevent it. You'd have to kill yourself, ask your dh to murder you or hope that you develop something like cancer in old age so refusing treatment will directly result in your death.

If you have an advanced directive and you have a heart attack, for example, staff won't do all they can to resuscitate you. It doesn't mean they won't look after you if you're not in imminent danger of dying!

You must decide about each treatment you don't want, and write them in your AD. See www.nhs.uk/conditions/end-of-life-care/advance-decision-to-refuse-treatment/

But I think you're being pretty bloody thoughtless and callous to go on about having an AD when your h's mum is in that situation. I'd shut right up about it and support your h.

I completely understand why you feel this way but don’t think an advanced directive would help you in the situation you’re talking about. Washing/ dressing/ toiletting/ offering food and drink are basic needs and support with this would never be withdrawn. No one is going to leave an incontinent person to lie in their own faeces! Advanced directives are about ensuring artificial feeding wouldn’t be initiated if the time came that it was needed, hospital admission avoidance etc etc.
I would imagine your MIL already has a DNAR in place. It’s probably just not the right time to discuss all this with your husband though.

Next of Kin don't really have much say in any decision these days - although a care team may consider their wishes it's the care team that decide.

It helps of course if you have a regularly Advance Decision in place.

www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/legal-issues/advance-decisions/

This. Why have you even brought this matter up at such a a sensitive time for your husband?

Well that's exactly why people make documents though, and they are always up for change potentially. The best thing for him would be to listen to you throughout as your spouse and be able to advocate for your true wishes at any given time, not refuse refuse refuse.

You could always appoint someone else power of attorney but it would be a bitter battle after your death.

I think a lot of people ponder their futures when they’re caring for very elderly relatives. I wouldn’t want the life of your poor mother in law but now isn’t the time to express it. Sometimes those who are slightly less close can see it more than immediate family but it doesn’t always mean you should vocalise it. My husband’s granny has dementia and it is such a horrible disease. When she had a bad chest infection I made a note to myself to refuse antibiotics and flu jab in an advanced directive should I have advanced dementia. It felt absolutely like her life was being prolonged despite her quality of life having deteriorated so much. I didn’t however choose that time to say it to my husband…

I'm with you. I have a health POA, and will have a DNR once I reach a certain age or if I'm diagnosed with certain illnesses.

@follyfoot37
Keeping up regular contact and support is caring for her

This is nothing to do with what you want and everything to do with you criticising the way his mum is and the care she’s being given by the family. You sound horrible.

But what difference is that going to make? If you were in the MIL’s position, none of that would apply.

Which is irrelevant to a situation like the MIL

Which is all well and good but none of those things will actually prevent you, the OP or anyone else actually being in the same situation as the OPs MIL.

Yanbu but he is obviously finding this very difficult to think about right now so if I were you I would just go ahead and do whatever legal stuff you want to do now, and raise it with him again in a few years’time. I imagine he’s finding it hard/impossible to think about right now given his mum. It sounds like a pointless argument to be having right now. Maybe better talking to him about how he feels about his mum. He might need to unravel that first

OP I think you and I are cut from the same very practical cloth, I would feel exactly the same about your mother in laws situation and would hate something like that for myself. We are but one of billions of humans, we will all die and I personally would like to do so before it starts to cost my family and the state too much- financially in the case of the latter and emotionally and financially in the case of the former. But I have learned that most people do not think like this and consider me a cold hearted beast for thinking and talking like that. Perhaps I am! Certainly I am not sentimental. So mostly I keep my mouth shut other than with my mum and sister who feel exactly as I do.

Which would all be totally irrelevant if you ended up in this situation 🤷🏻‍♀️

Hi OP do you mean you want ‘DNR’ or are you asking for something else? What do you mean by ‘not extents life’ in this context?

Maybe this isn’t the best time to discuss it with him? His mum is in that exact situation. You’re expecting him to be rational and objective but that’s a big ask given his beloved mum is still alive.

I think a 'no antibiotics' demand would not be unreasonable if you have dementia or similar. Though I would suspect family would overrule it because if you don't overrule it you are more or less saying - let them die.
Twice my relative was pumped with anti bs when they had chest infection and then weeks later another. They survived to have a very long lingering death. But I wasn't the nearest relative. In fact the nurse probably would have ignored me as I did try to say in a 'tactful' way is this a good idea when thy adminstered the first lot but the nurse seemed annoyed rather than listening.
The instructions would have had to be loud and clear and written up well before the need for them, I should think.

OP, I think you've been insensitive with the timing even though this is something important for all couples/families to discuss. I'm not sure how you can expect your husband to deal with your future wishes at a time when you should be helping him with his current feelings.

Adjust your priorities, and leave this discussion for a more suitable time.

So when IS OP allowed to consider her future in this regard? Does she have to wait until her MIL dies? Well no, because while her DH grieves would be considered bad timing by MN apparently.

OP is of the age where we all should be considering these things. She doesn't get to be forbidden from discussing it. My own late MILs dementia and my mum's paralysis following a stroke (and her multiple infections that have us having to make decisions) are the exact reasons WHY I and my brother talk about what we'd want.

OP doesn't get to have her right to make sensible provision for herself taken away from her because of her MILs situation..it's like saying that someone shouldn't make a will if their partner's patent has died. Which is madness.

Currently YABU in a way as any directive you have won’t allow offing you or not caring for you with dementia as that won’t hold up in that scenario (unfortunately).

I know this an emotive topic, and your husband is finding this difficult because of his mother, but I’m a doctor and will be getting an advance directive. While we cannot end a life, we can withhold life-saving treatment in the event of illness. If I am unable to express my wishes, but no longer recognise my family, am bedbound and doubly incontinent etc, I absolutely do not want any life-saving treatment, including antibiotics if I get pneumonia. I understand that this is not what everyone would chose, but we all have the right to make our own decisions.

compassionindying.org.uk/how-we-can-help/living-will-advance-decision/

If you genuinely don't want to end up in a nursing home with dementia, if you are diagnosed you could end your life in Switzerland with Dignitas, even if your DH doesn't want you to.

OP I wonder if your DH is getting so defensive because HE knows deep down she would be better off dead.
I honestly don't mean to be offensive but we wouldn't keep a dog or a cat in that state, it would be cruel.