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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that what's best for the children gets left out of the free childcare conversation

177 replies

Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 19:31

The original thread reached max capacity.

It was really interesting to read all the replies and refreshing to hear than some people felt the same, as I haven't heard it discussed much in the media. All that seems to get focused on is how free childcare hours will get people back to work, save people money, help the economy.

The question of what's in the best interest of children doesn't seem to come up.

Found this article this morning interesting and one of the first I've seen bringing these issues up.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/16/the-guardian-view-on-hunts-childcare-plans-jobs-arent-all-that-matter?

'But his offer, treats childcare as a means to a single end: getting parents into work. Childcare isn’t just an economic growth issue. Early years education plays a crucial role in targeting inequalities and closing attainment gaps. For this reason, quality matters as much as availability. Mr Hunt, like his predecessors, sees childcare primarily as a labour market tool.'

OP posts:
Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 22:51

VivaVivaa · 17/03/2023 22:29

But, god forbid, if your child was to suffer a serious accident on Monday morning, you’d be thanking with every fibre of your being that the paramedic’s baby, the A+E doctor’s baby, the paediatric nurse baby were being looked after in paid childcare so they could be in work caring for yours I hazard a guess.

Show quote history

I mean it's probably more Brexit and other issues to blame that we don't have enough doctors and nurses in our hospitals.

OP posts:
wiffin · 17/03/2023 22:52

Yes, I was still able to work and did. But the point I made (And you ignored because it didn't suit your argument) is I barely broke even despite having a salary significantly higher than average.

Lots of women would not view £15 a day a worthwhile take home for everything involved in earning it. I know lots of women who quit because of precisely this reason. And lots of women earn a lot less so wouldn't have been close to breaking even in the first place.

We will never achieve equality if women cannot work if they choose to do so.

But am sure you will ignore all that because it doesn't suit your narrative.

Botw1 · 17/03/2023 22:53

@Laptopneeded

Not at all.

I'm just confused by what you're saying

He gave you a break

So you did get a break?

And if you'd wanted more you could have used childcare

Botw1 · 17/03/2023 22:54

Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 22:51

I mean it's probably more Brexit and other issues to blame that we don't have enough doctors and nurses in our hospitals.

Show quote history

You cant possibly have misunderstood the point that badly?

Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 22:54

Magentaa · 17/03/2023 22:48

🤦🏼‍♀️ I’m sorry but you are really irritating!! They probably think what’s the point in working for scraps, however with the free hours that pressure is off they will get some relief and have hard earn money in their pocket!!

Show quote history

What's the point in working for scraps?

That doesn't sound like someone who is so keen to get back to work, and who's mental health is suffering for not working (to the point where it's effecting their children), and who would love the 'freedom' and 'choice' to be able to work?

OP posts:
SouthLondonMum22 · 17/03/2023 22:54

Laptopneeded · 17/03/2023 22:50

@Botw1

He did. 🙄

But it was still a long stretch whilst he worked shifts.

I would as a full time sahm have liked a break for a few hours each week.

It was really tough.

Is there anything else you contribute to these discussions?

It's like you want to portray any working dad as some sort of selfish bastard.

If working mothers are selfish, so are working dads.

wiffin · 17/03/2023 22:55

Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 22:47

And what about the choice for people on UC who will be forced to use these hours, or see cuts in the benefits

Show quote history

And that's a different argument. Being coerced to work.

Am pretty sure I used the word 'choice' a fair bit. And added that I don't believe we will get that from the Tories.

Botw1 · 17/03/2023 22:56

Benefits shouldnt be a lifestyle choice

WhereIsMyRefund · 17/03/2023 22:56

OP why do you care quite so much about this? Need to increase the word count for your article?

Albiboba · 17/03/2023 22:57

@Ilikepinacoladass So many people saying it's giving parents a 'choice' and freedom to work if they want. I just don't buy that in the current circumstances, for most people, working is costing them more more than it's making them.

You just keep saying ‘I don’t buy it’ ‘I don’t believe…’ etc but the reality is the data says the opposite whether you buy it or not. Over half of mothers who are currently not in employment say they would like to work but the cost of childcare means it’s too hard to justify. So it doesn’t matter what you believe.

And stop stop stop saying those on UC are being “forced” to leave their 9 month old in childcare. It’s actually ridiculous that you can be so disingenuous over and over.

SouthLondonMum22 · 17/03/2023 22:58

Benefits always come with conditions that you must meet, you have never and will never get many choices on benefits. Should it be a free for all?

Laptopneeded · 17/03/2023 22:58

Oh right.

No what I mean is being in sole charge from early am to late pm of small dc was really hard.

Have you been a sahm? It's pretty obvious really?
Esp at the toddler stage when they drop their nap.

Don't get me wrong it was an absolute privilege and it flew by but I would have been happier to have had a few hours per week in the day to have a break.

Many friends had childcare help from parents or nannies.

Or they were able to afford a childminder or nanny just for a few hours a few times a week to get a break in their day.

For me ideally a mix would have been perfect.
One or two days working with a mix of grandparents help and a few hours in a nursery.

When verbal.

Albiboba · 17/03/2023 23:01

OP just seems to be incredibly bitter with her life, that her and her child’s father are not together and so she can’t be a SAHM.
She takes that bitterness out on mothers who chose to work. She posts these same type of comments in multiple threads regularly, how they aren’t really choosing it, how bad it is for their babies, ridiculing maternal mental health etc.
Its pathetic.
No one is criticising her choice.
If she wanted to earn buttons on UC as a single mother she could. She chooses to work but she isn’t happy about it so she lashes out at other mothers in the hope it makes her feel a bit better about her own situation.

Botw1 · 17/03/2023 23:01

@Laptopneeded

You chose to be a sahm. And not to use childcare

You can't then moan you never got a break

And no I've never been a sahm but I do have kids do, weirdly enough, I am aware of what it's like to look after them all day.

Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 23:02

wiffin · 17/03/2023 22:52

Yes, I was still able to work and did. But the point I made (And you ignored because it didn't suit your argument) is I barely broke even despite having a salary significantly higher than average.

Lots of women would not view £15 a day a worthwhile take home for everything involved in earning it. I know lots of women who quit because of precisely this reason. And lots of women earn a lot less so wouldn't have been close to breaking even in the first place.

We will never achieve equality if women cannot work if they choose to do so.

But am sure you will ignore all that because it doesn't suit your narrative.

I just don't accept that lots of woman are wanting to work but unable to due to making a loss.

Tax free childcare, cheaper forms or childcare like childminders, and UC top ups all help.

And not seeing a small amount of profit being worth it so quitting, is not the same as not being able to work. It's a relatively small amount of time before kids start school. You're nearly always going to be in a better financial position by carrying on working.

OP posts:
Laptopneeded · 17/03/2023 23:04

@Botw1.
I'm being quite open about my experience here but I feel you have a one track agenda really and your using it as a stick to beat anyone who chose to stay at home with their dc.

It's not a moan.

I wouldn't have traded it in for all the tea in China. Those precious years are gone. I'm merely being honest about how hard they were at times and how looking back what would have been a perfect mix for me.

You sound incredibly bitter.
Im not going to engage further.

Laptopneeded · 17/03/2023 23:06

@Botw1

Oh and your comment about a break is laughable actually and shows you don't understand or empathise with 24 hours a day every day caring for children.

wiffin · 17/03/2023 23:07

Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 23:02

I just don't accept that lots of woman are wanting to work but unable to due to making a loss.

Tax free childcare, cheaper forms or childcare like childminders, and UC top ups all help.

And not seeing a small amount of profit being worth it so quitting, is not the same as not being able to work. It's a relatively small amount of time before kids start school. You're nearly always going to be in a better financial position by carrying on working.

Show quote history

Ffs

Am sure there is a word for people who refuse to accept facts and evidence. Can't be arsed to argue with people like that. I'm off to bed. Night all.

Botw1 · 17/03/2023 23:07

@Laptopneeded

Fair enough. Just seemed a bit of a contradiction

I'm not bitter. I dont have anything to be bitter about.

Like you I wouldnt trade any of it.

Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 23:08

Albiboba · 17/03/2023 23:01

OP just seems to be incredibly bitter with her life, that her and her child’s father are not together and so she can’t be a SAHM.
She takes that bitterness out on mothers who chose to work. She posts these same type of comments in multiple threads regularly, how they aren’t really choosing it, how bad it is for their babies, ridiculing maternal mental health etc.
Its pathetic.
No one is criticising her choice.
If she wanted to earn buttons on UC as a single mother she could. She chooses to work but she isn’t happy about it so she lashes out at other mothers in the hope it makes her feel a bit better about her own situation.

I enjoy my job actually and am very happy not to be a SAHP (also to not be in a relationship with my ex!)

I just think there are a lot of people saying they would love to work but just can't afford it. When actually they don't want to work and do want to be a SAHP.

And am concerned that no one seems to be questioning quality of childcare and whether it's actually a good thing for children to be in childcare from such a young age.

OP posts:
Botw1 · 17/03/2023 23:08

@Ilikepinacoladass

Why don't you accept it?

It's very odd that you won't

SouthLondonMum22 · 17/03/2023 23:11

Laptopneeded · 17/03/2023 23:06

@Botw1

Oh and your comment about a break is laughable actually and shows you don't understand or empathise with 24 hours a day every day caring for children.

Do you think working mums drop their newborns off at nursery straight from the hospital? Of course they understand how relentless and dull it can be.

It's a reason why I had a short maternity leave.

WeightoftheWorld · 17/03/2023 23:11

Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 22:10

If a childminder is planning on retiring they would give you notice. Which would be in the contract.

I'm sure there are flakey and non reliable ones out there in terms of sickness/ appointments but am pretty sure that's a small minority.

Your reasons still sound like more of just a preference than practical reasons.

And for two children it must have been a very small age gap or twins to be paying double fees without the free hours after the oldest turns 3, for any considerable length of time?

Show quote history

Sure, but waiting lists for good childminders and nurseries around here are frequently a year or more. So absolutely no chance of replacing the childcare in that situation with something of a similarly good quality in a time scale that wouldn't mean losing my job. I also think it's telling that you respond to my point about sickness by using the terms 'flaky and unreliable'. I don't think a childminder that becomes unwell is 'flaky and unreliable'! It's just that it's a not-insignificant risk and one we could absorb easily with nobody else to care for the kids.

Also, no there is not a 'very small gap' there is over 3yrs between my kids. The free hours cover only 2 full days of nursery and both of those days require consumables top up of £15 each. I did factor that in to the childcare costs. It still was more than my wages in my old job of 4 days a week to have them both in nursery for those 4 days a week.

I'm going to bow out now though as a few of us have responded to you in good faith with our 'real life' examples of our wages being less than childcare costs. Yet you're deliberately not engaging with it. And keep repeatedly saying things like 'i don't mean exceptions like : twins, small age gaps...' and so on. Those things aren't really exceptions anyway as they're so common, they are hardly rare circumstances. Bizarre to keep stating a claim over and over again saying 'i don't know anyone who cant afford to work', a bunch of us come in and give you examples, you ignore them and repeat 'i don't know anyone who cant afford to work'. Really odd and can't figure out what your agenda is tbh.

Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 17/03/2023 23:13

Albiboba · 17/03/2023 22:57

@Ilikepinacoladass So many people saying it's giving parents a 'choice' and freedom to work if they want. I just don't buy that in the current circumstances, for most people, working is costing them more more than it's making them.

You just keep saying ‘I don’t buy it’ ‘I don’t believe…’ etc but the reality is the data says the opposite whether you buy it or not. Over half of mothers who are currently not in employment say they would like to work but the cost of childcare means it’s too hard to justify. So it doesn’t matter what you believe.

And stop stop stop saying those on UC are being “forced” to leave their 9 month old in childcare. It’s actually ridiculous that you can be so disingenuous over and over.

'too high to justify' doesn't mean they were unable to make the choice to work if they wanted to.

Please show me where it says that there won't be UC sanctions on parents who chose not to use the free hours?

OP posts:
Botw1 · 17/03/2023 23:15

@Laptopneeded

I know it can be hard to imagine for a sahm, especially if you have an uninvolved partner.

But most working mums know exactly what it's like to be a sahm because they are fully engaged parents outside of their working hours and even during them

So of course I know what it's like to care for a child 24 hours a day every day.

Thats parenting