To think that what's best for the children gets left out of the free childcare conversation

[Ilikepinacoladass]

I'm all for parents being able to get back to work if they want to, woman's career's not being put on hold, the economy doing well etc..

But I find it quite worrying that what's best for the children seems to not be mentioned at all in the reporting around the govt introducing more and more free childcare hours, or considered in the policy making to begin with..?

I thought the reason it was 15 free hrs originally, and term time only (as is still the case) was because the original aim was to ensure children have access to early education? So they are not turning up at school aged 5 having had no preschool etc as their parents couldn't afford it?

Not to enable parents to get back to work as soon as possible leaving their children in childcare?

Then don't use the childcare if you don't want to. I think it'd brilliant.

Forced in what way? Millions of us make economic choices for children either to only have one, to put off when we have them, to stay living in a flat etc.

If you can afford to stay at home, great. Good for you. But I don't see why I should leave my kids and go to work to subside that choice for other people. And no, saying 'bit child care eats up wages anyway ' isn't the whole picture as it's long term earning potential and pensions

I have strong and antiquated feelings on this matter so I anticipate a roasting but here goes; children under 3 may benefit from some short provision during the week in a social setting with others the same age but definitely not long days everyday, i.e 7.30am - 6pm. They need to be around mummy (yes, primarily mummy) who can give them the love & physical affection that no-one else can.

Nurseries are NOT a substitute for a loving parent (usually mum) - and work should absolutely take 2nd place with raising a child coming a firm first. Yes it disadvantages the person who stays with the little one (usually mum) but those early years won’t ever come back - you only borrow them for a short time & it’s nothing short of cruel to dump an under 3yr old in full time nursery for long days so that you selfishly get to put your career first. Unless you have literally no other choice. Like no other choice. None at all.

There it is, nature has designed mummies & babies to want/need to be together. What that means in a modern society where everything is supposed to revolve around equality is that the mum loses our career-wise, sometimes temporarily & sometimes long-term. But FFS that’s the sacrifice you have to be prepared and willing to take - some things are worth more than your career. School takes them off your hands soon enough anyway - I feel so so bad for little people who attend full-time long days at nursery settings - it’s not right. Not by them, anyway.

I also happen to believe (whilst I’m up here) that if you really want to develop your career after having kids you can, & you will find a way. It doesn’t screw you over that much & as long as you remain in part-time employment you’ll still have the necessary connections & opportunities to pick up where you left off.

No one has to use it though? If you don’t want to work/use it, then don’t?

are you really that naive. Of course the government will demand it of single monthers claiming UC.

@Blueisthecolour1

'But FFS that’s the sacrifice you have to be prepared and willing to take'

Nah no thanks and no need.

I wasn't sacrificing anything. I especially wasn't sacrifcing anything their dad wasn't

@Botw1 @VivaVivaa no of course I don’t think it’s okay, I think it’s indicative of what’s part of the problem and why it’s nearly always women who are disadvantaged.

In our personal circumstances I want to be a SAHP this time round, and earn far, far less than him, and know I’d be better at it than he would be. But there are issues around that too… I also explained to him that whilst I am happy to stay at home (and I genuinely am), he must understand that it’s not all playgroups and coffees with other mums and watching Netflix. It’s bloody hard work and sometimes I do look at the clock and think god is it only 11 am. And that sometimes I would like a bit of understanding that I’m not having an easier time necessarily and would like a bit of validation and that actually as much as I want to stay at home, I do miss my work colleagues and some aspects of my job. I think he took on board what I was saying.

Not quite sure what I’m actually trying to say to be honest, other than, as I said in my original post on this thread, it’s a complex and emotive issue.

@Blueisthecolour1 why do you think a 2 year old needs a mummy around more than their daddy?

Agree with this. And I don’t see how any SAHP could provide an environment as stimulating as a childcare setting. As a PP said, a trip to the supermarket for the weekly shop and the park a few times a week, perhaps even a couple of toddler groups is no comparison to a setting and activities designed for infant development.

Cringey sexist nonsense.

Said by someone who wants mums to stay home so we have fewer women in their prime twenties and thirties training to be lawyers, doctors, scientists etc. You want the world effectively to be run by men. Shame on you.

And yes, as you say your feelings are antiquated. Never mind. One day you may see the light!

Yes I agree, and think 15 free hours, term time, from age 2 or 3 is brilliant, and almost definitely comes from a place of wanting the best for children.

30 free hours from 9 months? It seems the economy has a lot more to do with that one. And the economy is all I've been hearing about in relation to this policy.

I don't understand why I've been targeted with this question as my comment was positive towards the free hours etc and I said nothing of the sort.

However to try answer your question, I don't judge working mothers and in my circle of friends nobody else does either. Most of my mum friends work and they are excellent mums with happy super loved kids. Beyond that I can't speak for the rest of society but it seems someone will have something to say about any decision a parent has made, which obviously isn't fair and I'd like to hope that would stop but sadly I doubt it. My comment was my own thoughts and concerns about my own experiences and doesn't disregard the concerns of other parents in different situations to me.

Same here.

Even if were proved that being a stay at home parent is best for children (and it hasn’t been tbh), that isn’t the same thing as childcare being detrimental to children. And if there is more benefit to staying at home with children, is it a greater or lesser benefit than what two working parent can provide for said child, throughout childhood?

Aside from that, it’s not just children worthy of consideration. It’s also, you know, women who shouldn’t have to be forced into the role of stay at home parent (and economic inactivity. Of course the government is going to be more inclined to introduce measures to stimulate the economy, rather than removing a significant component of said economy) because they can’t afford childcare.

@Blueisthecolour1 I wholeheartedly agree with you, too.

It's helping parents to leave children in child care settings from an earlier age and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Most people I know, women usually don't want to go back to work so soon after having children. Can't their be another way that help the government can help financially for young families.

It’s very weird how disparagingly some people speak of the ‘economy’. How terrible it is that ‘mummies’ have to work for the sake of the big bad economy.

Er we need a functioning economy to ensure we have enough resources and they are appropriately distributed. A country having a strong economy doesn’t have to be a bad thing you know? But we need resources to be fairly distributed, and yes some governments are better than others at doing this. But the economy in itself is not the big bad beast that some needy sahms seem to think it is.

I agree with you that for the child it would probably be best to stay at home with a parent for the first couple of years. I've read a few studies that suggested that from age 3 onwards it's actually beneficial for the child to be in some part of kindergarten or preschool but before that It's stressful.

So I do think this is something that mainly benefits the economy but I think it also benefits women who would otherwise be forced (financially or socially) to stay at home.

Still considering that most of us do have to work I'm happy that at least we'll end up paying less for childcare. Currently almost half of my salary goes on it and I'm sure for others it might be worse.

If I'm not mistaken in Germany maternity leave is paid for 2 years and I would have loved that though!!

Sigh. It’s not compulsory to go back at nine months. It’s an option.

Also, on a completely different topic, I’d be wary of saying all nurseries provide a better environment than what can be created at home. I’ve worked in nurseries as I said, and I have many friends who have too. Some of the things that go on, whilst not exactly safeguarding issues are so far from ideal. Babies particularly cannot tell you when something is wrong, yes they may be upset/unsettled etc but they can’t tell you that they hate sleeping on a mat on the floor not in a cosy cot, and that’s why they’re so overtired, despite what their ‘daily diary’ says about them ‘sleeping well.’ Your 14 month old can’t tell you that they were hungry after lunchtime because they didn’t get enough help to eat their lunch because the staff had too many toddlers to look after.

I’m not saying this to say all nurseries are bad- they’re not and can be amazing. And like I’ve already said- it’s a choice. Mums and dads should have the choice- and if they want to work/NWD to work/both absolutely should be able to access GOOD quality, affordable childcare. But it’s not right to say to stay at home mums or dads that their child would be learning more/having a better experience in nursery, especially under the age of 2. They might do. But not definitely. And nurseries need to invest in their staff more. Pay them better. Etc.

I don’t disagree with longer parental leave so that parents who want to take it in the early years can. I took almost 15 months maternity and then put my child in full time in nursery and I’m comfortable and happy with my decision. I don’t need to shit on anyone else’s life in order to feel more confident about my own choices.

What I have a problem with is people who are actively against affordable childcare and want to force more women to be stuck at home doing unpaid domestic roles, tied to a man they may want to leave but can’t afford in order to play out some sahm utopia fantasy they have in their mind.

This is the most stinkingly privileged view I’ve seen so far. Most couples in their 20s and 30s ‘literally have no choice’ as it takes 2 average salaries to afford to live. Unless you are suggesting we sell our house, our car and our possessions and live in poverty in the name of not putting out DC into nursery 3 times per week? We aren’t having holidays, we buy second hand clothes and we spend weekends doing cheap/free activities. Most of my friends want to work as do I, but goodness the main driving factor is to prevent homelessness, not through vanity over our careers.

Imagine a society in which our 9 month olds are routinely put into institutions. The govt can dress it up however they want but a nursery is a form of institution. Babies are bearing the brunt of this supposed 'progress' because they can't speak up for themselves. If they could, what would they say? What would they choose - home with mum or out at 7.30am to some girl with an NVQ in a room of disorientated / miserable babies?

And I was a latchkey kid who thrived because my mother wanted to work and would have been fucking miserable at home.

Can't their be another way that help the government can help financially for young families.

SAHP deliver quite flakey childcare in some circumstances. Why should that be state funded?
I believe there Should be more support for flexi working, and part time working should be given more priority than it is.