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AIBU?

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Original poster

Disenfranchised older voters

71 replies

overtaxedunderling · 14/03/2023 10:33

Just had an elderly relative raise concerns.

Apparently the law changed last year and in all future elections, photo ID will be required for an elector to vote in person. Postal voters will be able to carry on as before. Those with no photo ID can apply for a certificate online.

Am I wrong to think that the group of individuals who tend to value their vote the most are at greatest risk of losing their ability to vote?

a) YABU - it's the 21st century and those in their 80s and above need to get with it.

b) YANBU - the convenience of those running public services should not adversely impact those entitled to use them.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
CanYouSayDicksickle · 14/03/2023 11:34

Shamoo · 14/03/2023 10:56

It’s a Tory policy to exclude poor and young voters who generally don’t vote for them. They have set up the ID rules to ensure old people will generally have ID and young people won’t.

Sure, Jan.

Most countries stipulate ID is required to vote. It's a pretty logical concept.

soddingspiderseason · 14/03/2023 11:46

I needed photo ID recently to collect a package from Evri at a local Tesco. Up till now anyone could pitch up at a polling station and as long as they give the right name and address, they will be given a ballot paper. Frankly, I think voting is something that needs to be taken at least as seriously in its security as a £10 parcel. The data on voter fraud only relates to the people who are challenged, caught and prosecuted, but unless there is an extremely good reason (eg they had verifiably already been in and voted at the same polling station claiming to be someone else) a poll clerk would have no grounds to challenge someone who stated that they are the person on the electoral register. Our current system is lax and the new requirements bring us into line with many other countries.

Original poster
overtaxedunderling · 14/03/2023 11:48

@BloodyHellKen

If with all the above in place to support you being able to vote you still can't manage it then it's probably a good thing that you don't vote because presumably you aren't fit to vote anyway.

Ouch

OP posts:
ShapesAndNumbers · 14/03/2023 11:49

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Elphame · 14/03/2023 11:50

This should have happened long ago.

GoodChat · 14/03/2023 11:50

overtaxedunderling · 14/03/2023 11:48

@BloodyHellKen

If with all the above in place to support you being able to vote you still can't manage it then it's probably a good thing that you don't vote because presumably you aren't fit to vote anyway.

Ouch

She's not wrong though, is she?

2bazookas · 14/03/2023 11:51

Every older person I know took covid precautions really seriously and adapting to it has permanently changed many aspects of their lifestyle.

That includes, changing their voting method to postal.

DH and I also changed to online smkt deliveries. Our DR and dentist offer text, email and telephone communications. Dh and all his bridge cronies moved to online playing. We order almost everything we need and pay our bills online, all our family/ hobby / volunteer groups now communicate on FB/by Whatsapp. The speed and convenience and low cost are Ideal for older less mobile people.

Don't dare write off our generation and technophobes; anyone aged 80 today, who was still working 15 or 20 years ago, was well used to modern technology. They've also experienced huge changes throughout their lives and it's made us far more resilient, adaptable and independent than so many of you youngsters.

Original poster
overtaxedunderling · 14/03/2023 11:51

soddingspiderseason · 14/03/2023 11:46

I needed photo ID recently to collect a package from Evri at a local Tesco. Up till now anyone could pitch up at a polling station and as long as they give the right name and address, they will be given a ballot paper. Frankly, I think voting is something that needs to be taken at least as seriously in its security as a £10 parcel. The data on voter fraud only relates to the people who are challenged, caught and prosecuted, but unless there is an extremely good reason (eg they had verifiably already been in and voted at the same polling station claiming to be someone else) a poll clerk would have no grounds to challenge someone who stated that they are the person on the electoral register. Our current system is lax and the new requirements bring us into line with many other countries.

I was under the impression that many thought that postal ballots were prone to interference and that reducing them would be an improvement - this seems to encourage people to take that route.

OP posts:
Albiboba · 14/03/2023 11:52

Why are you assuming older people are less likely to have any form of photo ID?

Paslaptis · 14/03/2023 11:59

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/03/2023 10:45

Come on, OP. This is just yet another thread about how scandalous it is that people who wish to have a part in the elected government, the government which raises and distributes taxes and legislates for the laws which govern civil society should be prepared to identify themselves . (Or is it that you prefer people who are not actually citizens to dictate these matters? ).

’ Elderly’ relatives could easily obtain a voting registration under the legislation, if they don’t have any photo id. Or they could register for a postal vote. gosh, you could even help them……

(Or is it that you prefer people who are not actually citizens to dictate these matters? )

How would this happen, please? You have to prove your right to vote with identity and residency documents (and these are not limited to UK citizens, because the franchise is not so limited) when you register. Possibly a person who is not the person registered COULD show up to vote, if the actual authorised voter chose not to vote and gave this other person all of the relevant information for impersonation.

Is there evidence that this happens a lot in the UK?

soddingspiderseason · 14/03/2023 12:02

@overtaxedunderling
Yes there is also an issue with postal votes. My point was about voting in person at a polling station as that's what your thread was based on. At least with a postal ballot it will be delivered to a specific address. But I agree, the next step ought to be tightening up on postal ballots as well. Voting is too important. Where turn out is very low (eg in local elections or by elections) voter fraud could potentially make the difference between who gets elected, and that's just plain wrong.

Whyisitsososohard · 14/03/2023 12:03

I definitely don't think it's this group who are at greatest risk of losing their vote more likely young and low income people in unstable living situations.

adriftindenofvipers · 14/03/2023 12:03

ColonelDax · 14/03/2023 11:06

Absolute drivel. Young people are more likely than old to have photographic ID, and even if they don't have any, free voter IDs will be available for all.

Show quote history

Quite agree. Don’t know any young people who can’t produce ID to get into a club or buy alcohol ffs!

As for disenfranchising that is a load of bollocks too! NI has used photo ID for years to clamp down on the’vote early vote often’ fraudsters.

Total non issue!!

Original poster
overtaxedunderling · 14/03/2023 12:05

CanYouSayDicksickle · 14/03/2023 11:34

Sure, Jan.

Most countries stipulate ID is required to vote. It's a pretty logical concept.

Show quote history

Most countries issue an ID document of some kind to every adult citizen.

OP posts:
Natsku · 14/03/2023 12:16

overtaxedunderling · 14/03/2023 12:05

Most countries issue an ID document of some kind to every adult citizen.

Show quote history

About 100 countries around the world have compulsory ID documents for adults, that's not most countries, and not all of them will issue them to citizens but instead they will be required to apply and pay for them.

No one is disenfranchised in the UK when there is a free option, so long as there is sufficient information about how to apply for it. Unlike those of us who live abroad for more than 15 years who actually are disenfranchised (still waiting for that new rule that's supposed to come in, if it'll even apply to those of us who already have been disenfranchised)

PurpleParrotfish · 14/03/2023 12:22

It’s totally unnecessary. Voter fraud is minuscule, it’s a non-issue. But it’s being used to introduce barriers to voting which will disproportionately affect those who are disadvantaged in other ways. It’s completely different from requiring voter ID in a country where people already carry ID cards.

I really hate the attitude that it’s fine to create unnecessary barriers to voting because those affected could get over them if sufficiently well-informed, motivated, organised, didn’t have complex lives or caring responsibilities getting in the way...

Everyone is affected by government policies, everyone should be able to vote easily.

MandyMotherOfBrian · 14/03/2023 12:28

I’m not sure having to prove your identity in order to vote is an issue, and as PPs have pointed out, a Voter Authority Certificate can be applied for on the absence of other photo ID. It is an anomaly that various forms of senior bus passes and over 60s Oyster Cards are accepted but, for example, Student ID Cards aren’t. So no, I don’t think older people will be more disadvantaged. I do think however a bigger problem is publicising of this - I think there will be plenty of people who turn up on the day to vote who are turned away because they know nothing about this. I wouldn’t want to be manning a polling station when this is rolled out.

soddingspiderseason · 14/03/2023 12:37

PurpleParrotfish · 14/03/2023 12:22

It’s totally unnecessary. Voter fraud is minuscule, it’s a non-issue. But it’s being used to introduce barriers to voting which will disproportionately affect those who are disadvantaged in other ways. It’s completely different from requiring voter ID in a country where people already carry ID cards.

I really hate the attitude that it’s fine to create unnecessary barriers to voting because those affected could get over them if sufficiently well-informed, motivated, organised, didn’t have complex lives or caring responsibilities getting in the way...

Everyone is affected by government policies, everyone should be able to vote easily.

How do you know that voter fraud is minuscule? Only a tiny number of people are caught and prosecuted. I work in a polling station; there is absolutely no way to challenge someone who states that they are the person who they say they are, so no-one actually knows what the true level of voter fraud is. Yes, voting is extremely important, and that's why we need to ensure that it's better managed in order to preserve the legitimacy of the ballot. This year will be difficult and better comms are needed. But its the right step. As per my previous post, if I need photo ID to collect a parcel, surely it's more important to need photo ID to cast a ballot?

Original poster
overtaxedunderling · 14/03/2023 17:53

@MandyMotherOfBrian
I do think however a bigger problem is publicising of this - I think there will be plenty of people who turn up on the day to vote who are turned away because they know nothing about this.

My reason for flagging the situation.

I'm grateful for the responses and can see that the majority of voters (here) feel that we should be accommodated but need not be pandered to.

OP posts:
XDownwiththissortofthingX · 14/03/2023 18:12

Personation is virtually non-existent in UK elections, but we're supposed to believe that the Tories, for no reason whatsoever, brought about a bill intended to tackle a non-existent problem, but not only that, it will adversely affect Tory core voter base and disenfranchise those above all?

Utterly risible.

It's a shameless attempt to disenfranchise poor and disadvantaged people who are already the least likely to vote, but overwhelmingly vote for parties other than the Tories when they do. Anyone who understands the first thing about structural discrimination can immediately see this naked shithousing for exactly what it is. This government has been so consistently abhorrent for years that they are now running scared of a backlash from disaffected minorities who would ordinarily not bother voting, so what better way to neuter that threat than making it even more difficult and unlikely for them to vote? The Republicans have been pulling the same shit in the States for years. No wonder this criminal cartel in Westminster are taking a leaf out of the Trump playbook. They've descended to his level in every other respect.

Trying to pass this off as anything other than shithouse politics 101 is utterly laughable.

MintJulia · 14/03/2023 18:12

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/03/2023 10:45

Come on, OP. This is just yet another thread about how scandalous it is that people who wish to have a part in the elected government, the government which raises and distributes taxes and legislates for the laws which govern civil society should be prepared to identify themselves . (Or is it that you prefer people who are not actually citizens to dictate these matters? ).

’ Elderly’ relatives could easily obtain a voting registration under the legislation, if they don’t have any photo id. Or they could register for a postal vote. gosh, you could even help them……

This.

Dontevenstart · 14/03/2023 19:43

It’s almost like the Tory PR machine has identified that women are a likely swing vote group, and the bots are well and truly at work.

The voter ID scheme is designed to suppress votes by those that would not vote Tory.

LlynTegid · 14/03/2023 19:54

It has been introduced to try to reduce the non-Tory vote. If the Tories were really concerned then Lutfur Rahman would never be allowed to hold public office (Mayor of Tower Hamlets disqualified in 2015, should have been for life).

Wontbringlulu · 16/03/2023 00:51

LlynTegid · 14/03/2023 19:54

It has been introduced to try to reduce the non-Tory vote. If the Tories were really concerned then Lutfur Rahman would never be allowed to hold public office (Mayor of Tower Hamlets disqualified in 2015, should have been for life).

Nonsense.

UK (apart from Northern Ireland) was the only country in the EU where you didn't need photo ID.

If we'd stayed in the EU it would no doubt have become compulsory in due course.

eloquent · 16/03/2023 00:54

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 14/03/2023 10:46

This move was brought in to make it more difficult for poor people to vote, that a few elderly people will be caught up is of no consequence to the tories.

They've obviously worked out that non-tory voters are more likely to fall foul of the rules than tory voters otherwise they'd never have implemented the changes.

This, it's not about the elderly, but it will cause them issues.