To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

@user1471556443 how long ago did you graduate ? Things have changed a lot in terms of how they are recruited. Can't just rock up because daddy is a doctor anymore (read Adam Kay if this is unclear).
I don't doubt in the past prestige was a thing. Now ? Not with any student I've ever met (& I've met quite a few at outreach events, open days, conferences and through my own students).

@memorial your reply was better 😂

@Crikeyalmighty please can you run to be Prime minister 😊. Simple ideas fix most things.

No, that is no how loans work. If you had a debt of £200k+ then you have to pay a lot more.

What has that got to do with anything. I would think young people know they have towork hard but that doesn't mean they should be taken advantage of. Ffs.

Memorial, no I am not a failed medical applicant, I went to university in the 1990s with 3As at A level when medicine entry requirements were 3 Bs , so no chip there🙄
Also, I have to say your attitude ABSOLUTELY stinks regarding dentists as failed medics, and I have to say that I DID come across this attitude a lot, from the medical students in my year, that they felt they were gods as they had got into such a prestigious degree! Also, your bitterness towards your patients and people in general really comes across in all your posts, you have got such a nerve, claiming I am bitter!!
And to say that the whole profession of dentists are money grabbing, is an absolute disgrace also, and is completely untrue.
NHS dentists work incredibly hard on a pittance wage also. Like I said, I have no problem with improving drs working conditions etc, I totally agree with this, but am just saying more money for drs is not the solution and not should it ne

Let me tell you an F1 or F2 who is present on the ward is far more use than Consultants who, very often, are not! It will be one of those that comes to your CPR call and have the most recent training in performing this than some aged consultant who isn't even in the hospital. So it is utter tripe that F1/F2 doctors are of short of useless to have around. There is a reason some Consultants have had to be retrained recently in how to do the basics in readiness for the Junior doctor strike over the next few days. This is what needs addressing in the nhs.

Also the reason why I didn't go into medicine, when I more than had the grades was because of the appalling working conditions. So as an 18 year old this was common knowledge, even back then.
Don't go into a profession, which is known for poor working conditions and with transparent pay scales,then moan later, that you should be earning more!

@user1471556443 do you only do NHS dentistry then ? That's a rarity these days. Most do private work as their main source of income so can set their own wages.

See, that's not about money though, you can't pay people enough to put them in a situation like that. If you want to talk about expectations on newly qualified doctors, nurses and allied health professionals there is a toxic nature to the way people are expected to shut up and put up. The problem can't be paid for though. The mental health of our newly qualified doctors needs protecting, the changes being made in that are already helpful compared to 15/20 years ago, at least where I work but overall the expectations in a 24 year old and the level of responsibility without support wouldn't be acceptable at any salary.

@Forgooodnesssakenow yes it is about pay. The reason that F1 was alone was due to staff shortages, caused by staff leaving due to low pay. Pay restoration will improve conditions as less will leave so less staff shortages, so safe wards and therefore people don't burn out and flee.

My aunt who is a nurse told me if I ever wanted a family not to do medicine. I thought she was being stupidly patronising and sexist and my reasons for not doing medicine were actually to do with the training time, as someone from a very poor family I just wouldn't have been able to afford the study, the textbooks, the number of years, the travel required for placement, it just wasn't doable. But honestly the NHS is not a family friendly employer in general but as clinical staff in 9-5 outpatients setting I've a much better bag than a nurse or doctor. I'll never earn what a consultant does but I don't think I'd have been able to anyway due to family pressures. Medicine is not an easy gig, definitely not. I do think on the whole the exponential salary increase means it is eventually well enough paid to offset that.

Paying an F1 more doesn't help with that, paying experienced nurses, nurse practitioners, registrars and consultants better so they enter and stay in post would help. It's an overall budget rather than separate salary thing. You can have 10F1s but without enough registrars and consultants you just have a lot of overworked, stressed, newly qualified babies with noone to learn from.

@Forgooodnesssakenow but it's not exponential. It gets stuck half way up, sometimes for v many years. It's not a linear progression.

@Forgooodnesssakenow I think your 'newly qualified babies' says it all. They are 23/24 and have been on wards for years. Patronising.
Who do you think will be one those registrars in the future? Pay ALL doctors more and more will stay here. Otherwise say goodbye to the NHS.

The world is a competitive market and doctors are a needed commodity. So the YK needs to offer competitive salaries. When W Australia is offering an F2 £85,000 for a 35 hour week why would ours stay for £35,000 for an endless one.
No F2s, no registrars or consultants in the future.

UK.

Yes,mumsneedwine, I only 100 percent do NHS dentistry as I work in a very very socially deprived area where the majority of patients are exempt from paying dental charges.
I went into dentistry, after considering medicine.
I wished to work in a career where I would be able to help patients, and was put off medicine by the working conditions of a junior doctor in those days which were far worse than today.
I consider being able to help patients and to get them out of pain, as a huge privilege. I love my job, and am grateful daily, for the opportunity to serve and help others whilst earning an ok wage ,
Although I would love to be paid more, that isn't why I went into this profession, and would never dream of striking for more pay.

@user1471556443 well thank you. I've never met a totally NHS dentist. In fact I can't even find one that does NHS work, either where I live or where I work (one of the poorest places in the country). You are indeed a rarity.

So you would pay for healthcare privately.
Great.

Where do you want the private doctors to come from?

My niece is a medic, it works out at around £14 an hour. They don't get £29K, more like £35K due to the sheer amount of overtime/oncall shifts. That extra £6K means on average they do 20% more hours than the 'basic' and many do locum shifts on top.

I don't understand how they expect people to work that many hours and be safe to be responsible for people's lives. It's also why they can't afford to up wages. If they upped the basic salary, they'd be paying it on all the extra hours they do too. Upping to base of £32K would result in actually paying them more like £39K and then locum pay on top. Until they make conditions better they're going to struggle to pay them more.

@user1471556443 so a first year dentist earns £9,000 more than a first year doctor. Do you not think it should be comparable ? Would seem a sensible comparison.

@Drstrike I'm not sure if you're still reading this but it was never going to go well. MN hates doctors. We're all useless and don't deserve to be paid at all apparently. Sadly there are many very stupid people out there who will never understand, so it's best to leave them to it.

Forgot the info

Mumsneedwine, yes there are lots and lots of my colleagues who are also 100 percent NHS and who genuinely went into this job to help others! It really upsets me when we constantly hear media rhetoric on greedy dentists! What upsets me, even more is hearing this crap trotter out by drs such as memorial, who seem very bitter about their own careers.
Mumsneedwine, I thank you also, for all you do in helping poorer kids to get into medicine/ dentistry, and completely understand your motivation and reasons for this, although I did question earlier whether you shouldn't be spelling out more to them about the appalling conditions and to be making them aware that medicine is not the only career in which you are able to help others