To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

@SamanthaCaine not sure what a good complex is as I don't believe in such things. However I do know that it's more stressful dealing with life than it is a coffee machine. I doubt many baristas have a good cry in the sluice room when a cappuccino goes wrong. But hey, let's pay them the same anyway.

@Floatingboats qualify and then leave seems to be the option at the moment. Better pay, conditions and respect. Pretty much anywhere else but UK (Europe becoming popular now too). As we can see here not much respect from some sections of the population.

My son is an F2 grade Junior Doctor from a typically working class background who attended a mediocre state school and achieved exactly the same results as your child is predicted. He has been nominated for accolades by many patients and peers for his empathy towards his patients, towards fellow staff and his hard work. He loves being a doctor but even he would tell your child to choose any other career than medicine. I am losing my son to work in another country in September.

He has been the most senior doctor on his ward for the last 7 consecutive night shifts and been in sole charge of an excessive amount of patients. There were no Consultants to confer with on duty so was left with no alternative but to call the on duty manager. He was then told to contact the only consultant on duty who was in A and E! Can you imagine being in that situation when you are making prescribing decisions, treatment plans, looking after the F1 training doctors and you are still only a training doctor yourself whilst also running the risk at at any point that your decisions could lead you to being 'struck off' at any point and completely losing your career that hasn't even started properly yet.

Please, please tell your child to follow a different path. Nothing is going to change in the nhs any time soon.

I am happy to take my chances. The thing is a lot of use already know the NHS won't be there when we need it. It is already hard to get in to see a GP and years to wait for many treatments - 7m on the waiting list (not helped by 18m more people in the UK than when I was born) and the rest of us working full time to pay the highest tax burden for 70 years because the state took decisions with which i did not agree over furlough and lock down, supposedly to support an organisation I don't really support. No wonder the public fees cross.

I would certainly support no sick pay and no pension provision of any kind and no enhanced maternity rights for state workers to put them in the same position of many of us in the private sector. I will work until I die and continue to work half the year to fund an over bloated wasteful big state (unless I move countries)

I would certainly support no sick pay and no pension provision of any kind and no enhanced maternity rights for state workers to put them in the same position of many of us in the private sector.

Wow, ok.

God, if I had any doubts about striking they have well and truly evaporated. If we don’t stand up for ourselves it’s clear no one else will.

in general it is a very highly paid profession

And so it should be. Not many people can do it, we can't manage without doctors, and they have enormous responsibility. Of course doctors should be well paid.

I'm amazed you never emigrated to the US, Xenia. You'd have fitted in well there.

Not according to this link
www.bma.org.uk/media/5504/bma-junior-doctors-contracts-pay-tables-apr-2022-2023.pdf
There the table clearly states a 48 hour week is £35261
The £29384 is 40 hours a week

@Xenia who in the private sector doesn't get sick pay or pension provision - it's a legal right that employers now pay into a pension for their employees. And I've never worked for a company that didn't pay sick pay. I know carers don't get it - are you a carer because I thought you were a highly paid lawyer ?
Over 40% if doctors planning on leaving the NHS in the next 3 years. I assume those people advocating for no pay rise are happy not having doctors or nurses.

(not helped by 18m more people in the UK than when I was born)

Oh gosh I missed this on my first reading. You ought to buy a louder whistle, some people who share your abhorrent opinions might not have heard that.

@Cyantist the contract is 48 hours. And then they are expected to stay for how ever many hours are needed to finish or cover over danger levels. What is says on paper and what happens in reality bear no resemblance to each other. And they v often forget to pay anything that actually is extra. Never forget to issue a parking fine if you overstay because your shift became 15 hours not 12.
In Wales it's even worse as their contract states that can work 10 days of 12 hour shifts in a row.
Not sure why people think I'm making stuff up 🤷‍♀️

The average number of hours can include working 48 hours in one weekend, then day clinics, then time off shift spent in lectures, study and mentor meetings.

Most doctors work overtime, often unpaid, as it was not agreed beforehand, to cope with over running clinics and handovers

Averaging 'one week' off a month in 12 hour increments is not for the faint hearted.

@Iwantroplayanothergame big hugs. I'm facing the same. But think I'll follow them out of here. Being a teacher I'm equally as hated (& equally as wanted in Australia).

I too would love to follow them but I am a TA of over 20 years whose role seems to be equally misunderstood these days. I don't think there the same opportunities for TA's.

I absolutely cannot blame them for leaving. In fact I have already told him I will pay for his visa!
Best of luck to you both

I am aware, but if the contract states 48 hours, they are paid £35261, plus extra for weekends, which almost all junior doctors will be required to work.
I do understand that contracted hours and hours worked are very different. I regularly work 30 hours over my contracted hours and get no overtime pay whatsoever, neither do I have anywhere near the potential earning power of a clinician.

As a doctor in training you’ll earn a basic salary, plus pay for any hours over 40 per week, a 37 per cent enhancement for working nights, a weekend allowance for any work at the weekend, an availability allowance if you are required to be available on-call, and other potential pay premia
^^
From www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors#:~:text=As%20a%20doctor%20in%20training,and%20other%20potential%20pay%20premia.

What am I missing?

@SamanthaCaine probably a lot. It seems that most things go over your head.

Have you read anything about the conditions and issues within the NHS mentioned? I earn enough. I have not complained once about my pay. There are other issues at play. Or are you just reading what you want to read?

When comparing with America, it is worth considering that an OB/Gyn in Manhattan pays around $185,000 per year for malpractice insurance. And that only insures up to $3.9million which may well not be enough.

Doctors are civil servants. A six figure potential (or more) is perfectly adequate for a job that's paid by taxpayers.

I'm not the reason the NHS is a shitshow. I pay my taxes at the appropriate rates. The shitshow lies with management, the government, union and the usual public sector nonsense.

This thread makes for very sad reading. As a doctor, it's clear that we are neither supported or valued, by a large proportion of the public.

It's all very well for many people to say that £14/hour is enough in their opinion, but when it's well below what is offered abroad, then we will just lose doctors to other countries (most predictably Australia and New Zealand)

I am a 'junior doctor'. I qualified 10 years ago. My annual salary before tax is just over £40k/year. Out of that, I need to pay out of my own pocket for my indemnity, GMC registration, and exam fees, as well as student loan repayments and even parking is charged. It doesn't leave enough to live off, especially considering childcare.

Many junior doctors never make it to being consultants. I don't know if I will, as I don't know how much longer I can manage in the current situation.

Like many other colleagues, I was also thrown into the covid wards with little support and no training, and been treated with indifference when suffering with PTSD as a result of this. I also got very sick from covid, contracted from my work.

Imagine doing a job that both pays terribly, and makes you sick.

Go on then, instead of sniping.

A six figure potential (or more) is perfectly adequate

I just think, if people are haemorrhaging out of the profession, and 96% of doctors eligible voted to take industrial action to increase pay, then maybe it’s not perfectly adequate after all.

Then that's just greed.

Conditions are ridiculous. We all know that. Sort that. Ensure 40 hour weeks are the norm and the rest of the NHS is functional and the money would be less of an issue.

Mumsneedwine, I don't understand why if you think medicine is such an appalling career, you work so hard in trying to get DC in your school into medicine? I have read your other threads and seen how much you encourage DC and help them into this field?? If it's so truly awful why would you do this? I am a dentist, and really do feel sorry for the doctors with regards to their working conditions, but definitely not with regards to their pay?? NOBODY should be going into this profession for the money, unfortunately I see a LOT of people ( I would even say the majority of the medical students that I studied alongside at university) were attracted to this profession by the prestige of the job and the status.