To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

I’m a senior nurse on an inpatient ward and fully support the junior doctors striking. The expectations of them and their remuneration is just totally unacceptable. I certainly wouldn’t want to go into medicine knowing how it is for them.

But that is beside the point. Doctors are paid well by the standards of the average lawyer, even the average lawyer from a RG university which requires the same grades for entry as does medicine. It is ridiculous, and very demeaning to skilled lawyers, to suggest that any medic could become a high-flying magic circle lawyer.

More than enough at £14 per hour? I can't believe you think that.
6 years of study and work placements to earn £14 per hour with responsibility of wards of patients, no choice where you are placed in the country.
Their pay disgusts me, compared to a job in a bar paying £12 per hour etc etc etc.
And no they don't all come from wealth and privilege.

And why do you think the NHS relies so much on locums?

Medicine is not saturated and all medicine degrees are equal. There is no oversupply of qualified doctors, quite the opposite. No market forces at play to keep their salaries depressed, just an unreasonable employer with a total monopoly. Totally different things. Also, we are talking about F1/F2s here, not doctors in specific specialities.

Perhaps a fairer comparison to this situation in the field of law would be criminal barristers. Minimum wage paid two years in arrears.

@Shelefttheweb 'Paramedics? Firefighters? Armed services? All these work at night under high stress making difficult decisions with lives in their hands - including their own life.'
I don't want to diminish any other profession's work but these roles are not the same.
Paramedics have an awful lot to put up with and are very underpaid but they work shifts not round the clock and the buck doesn't stop with them in the way it does with doctors. All the other HCPs except will defer to doctors in so man situations and we are expected to make far more decisions and lead the team.
Firefighters spend the majority of their time doing relatively easy work and quite a lot of it waiting for calls. Four of them turn up in a truck for minor tasks. They are not rushing about constantly, saving lives. They also work shifts and have time off and get paid pretty well and historically retired after 30 years (probably not the case now).
Armed service obviously have really variable roles. I don't have family/ close friends in the service so don't feel best placed to comment but I do know that even the very junior recruits have an awful lot of paid leave between placements.

Why should we be judging medics by average lawyers. Ah because conveyancing is on a par with saving lives, right?!And have you seen the UCAT? The entry A level grades for medicine is just one small part of the application and many would say that is actually the easiest part. I've seen you writing absolute rubbish about medicine on other threads. Stick to what you know.

Certainly an unreasonable employer with a total monopoly, but the job itself is hardly comparable, nor the training.

One of my DDs in the US sees a doctor for a specific condition. He charges $225 for 15 minutes, in person or over the phone. Just saying..

The problem is that 'The Cash Strapped NHS' is seen as a fixed element in the equation here. It's not a fixed and immutable situation. It's a problem that can easily be solved by simply making the NHS a not-cash-strapped institution.

Doctors have just got ideas above their station IMO

Or perhaps they are starting to recognise their worth? Not even that though tbh as they're after pay restoration not a rise.

Armed service obviously have really variable roles. I don't have family/ close friends in the service so don't feel best placed to comment but I do know that even the very junior recruits have an awful lot of paid leave between placements.

I mean you can join the forces with little to no qualifications for some trades so zero student debt or whatever which is good. During basic and through trade training pay isn't great, but accommodation is free, food is subsidised and you are eligible for pay towards travelling home every fortnight etc. Once you pass out accommodation is still heavily subsided whether you live in the block or on the patch along with free food when away, Enhanced pay when away from base location, decent leave allowance etc. Certainly not sunshine and rainbows and yes they also deserve more, but generally the additional support you get as the expectation is you move around regularly and whatever else allows for spare money at the end of the month. Generally you can also progress at a fair pace.

Junior Doctors rotate every 6 months for the first few years and have to pay for accommodation, parking etc- it's a big ask.

Do people believe inequality is bad, AND believe that doctors need to be paid more to prevent them leaving for higher pay overseas? Or is it the people who don't care about inequality that support the doctors?

What do you mean by comparable? It obviously isn’t medicine. They are defending innocent people who may end up spending decades in prison if they don’t do a good job. Or allow others to escape justice so they are free to murder or rape people, destroying their victims lives and those of their families. On a lower scale their work results in families being torn apart, careers destroyed, victims seeing their abusers escape justice. And they may only have received the case files the day before so have to work all hours to prepare. But you are right it isn’t the same as being a junior doctor.

It's nonsense to suggest that there's a specific medical form of intelligence that makes those equipped with it unable to put their hand to something else.

I know people who are MD and JD in the US, people who have moved seamlessly in both directions, and they came from a variety of bachelor's degree backgrounds.

Like belief in the unchangeable nature of 'The Cash Strapped NHS', it's a case of looking at a specific path into university in a specific country and believing it has some special significance. It does not. High intelligence is high intelligence. Some education systems allow for a great deal more flexibility in career paths than others.

I mean you can join the forces with little to no qualifications for some trades so zero student debt or whatever which is good. During basic and through trade training pay isn't great, but accommodation is free, food is subsidised and you are eligible for pay towards travelling home every fortnight etc. Once you pass out accommodation is still heavily subsided whether you live in the block or on the patch along with free food when away, Enhanced pay when away from base location, decent leave allowance etc. Certainly not sunshine and rainbows and yes they also deserve more, but generally the additional support you get as the expectation is you move around regularly and whatever else allows for spare money at the end of the month. Generally you can also progress at a fair pace.

Junior Doctors rotate every 6 months for the first few years and have to pay for accommodation, parking etc- it's a big ask.

You missed the bit where the armed forces are sent away on deployment for months at a time and may be killed in action.

I support doctors and understand that different jobs attract different salaries based on a variety of factors. We don't have enough doctors and more are planning to leave, this is a huge problem that needs addressing. Pay is just one factor in it but its an important one. Call me a realist if you like. Of course in an ideal world everyone would have the same resources, opportunities and assets, but that's not how it works. I would support anyone who feels they are underpaid to strike though.

Some people on here would have no problem with junior doctors earing 200k..

What do you mean by inequality? Are you trying to suggest that bin men as discussed earlier, should be paid the same as doctors for the sake of equality? Do you believe in Communism?

Well no I mentioned they get an enhanced rate when away from their home base, ie deployment, seen as though we are talking about pay and all that's the relevant part. There are also provisions for the other if it sadly occurs. How often do you think they are deployed for months at a time?

'You missed the bit where the armed forces are sent away on deployment for months at a time and may be killed in action.'

The risk of death is very low and occasional. A lot of the time a lot of service people are performing more routine tasks without threat of death. As the pp described, they do receive a lot by way of compensation too. Whether it is enough is a matter for debate.
As also mentioned, school leavers can join up without any qualifications and be paid and trained for free. This is in no way similar to junior doctors.

Law is definitely oversaturated. This is because of the number of institutions offering Law degrees , solicitors / barristers training has increased over the last twenty or so years. As a result there are too many people chasing fewer jobs. Most jobs are terribly paid
This was not the case when I qualified as a solicitor many moons ago. I no longer work in the legal profession.

Many of my friends and relatives are medics.
Medicine has always had a cap on the number of medical students entering the profession so most will find work . However the work is gruelling and not well paid. Prospective medical students should have done some thorough research before entering the profession

I advised my dcs not to enter either Law or medicine unless they have a real passion for these areas. The truth is that many people enter these professions because they are highly regarded and not because they are actually cut out for the work

I don't agree that many enter the profession just because it is highly regarded. These are clever kids that can work out that they would be better paid using their brains in City jobs etc. And yes I do believe many of them could do very well in such jobs. But they would rather do something altruistic and meaningful to them. Doesn't mean they should have to be Mother Teresa FGS. Maybe the reality doesn't match their idea of what it would be like. But I would argue that it is hard for anyone to imagine what it is like in the NHS these days unless you are in it. Never mind a seventeen year old setting out to try to do some good in the world. I have no doubt that most go into it with the very best of intentions and not for some glory. They just end up getting the stuffing knocked out of them.

No I think doctors should be paid more than binmen. But not as much more as doctors want to be. I do not believe in communism.

If you think inequality is going to be solved by driving doctors to emigrate, @Florenz, you need to think again. The poor are the ones who will wait longer for medical appointments, who will wait for surgery, whose chronic conditions will not be adequately treated. Women will continue to experience below par care in maternity. Especially low in the list of priorities will be people who are mentally ill. A lot of people won't be able to work because of health problems that go unaddressed.

As also mentioned, school leavers can join up without any qualifications and be paid and trained for free. This is in no way similar to junior doctors.

You would have to pay your first two years of medical school, but after that the Royal Navy will pay you a salary for your remaining three years, pay your tuition fees for those years and pay you a book allowance. And what is more, you wouldn’t need to work for the NHS for the first six years after qualifying.

Some of the comments here are from people with no clue really about the situation of junior doctors. Just a lot of opinions. It's sad.